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Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Umm, Bruce, I don't really care whether you posted there because it has got good ratings.

As for attacking others? just what are you doing then, pray tell?

Peggy doesn't need anyone to defend her. She runs a hugely sucessful, credited site.
It is against the rules to discuss PMF here.

However, may I suggest you take a hike....over to Perugia Shock. Frank says certain Amanda supporters should STFU, unless they have something intelligent to say. ( hint)

You have really taken a liking to Frank. Did I mention that Frank believes Amanda and Raffaele are innocent?

You have outdone yourself with your praise of PMF above. I really see no point in continuing this conversation. I was really hoping that you would stand up and defend the group that you belong to. I wasn't asking you to defend Peggy. I was asking you to defend the hate group you proudly participate in. Of course you can't do that so you simply change the subject.
 
Bingo! That's exactly it Chris. And yes she helped the prosecution's theory in a convoluted way but the defense had an obligation to argue as you did above. If they had we likely would have nothing to say about Nara now.

Actually it was my understanding that they did argue about how Nara's statements contradict the prosecutions theory at the trial. Though I think the defense is now taking the approach other than her claim to hear a scream, everything she testified about afterwards didn't happen when she said it happened. Though that aspect of her testimony is definately covered in Knox's appeal. (p187)
 
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I have had 15 years of experience with computers, working with them, building them, lugging them about, dropping bits of them, not one bit of that knowledge would allow me to predict how a computer would act and land if it was thrown through a window.

I also have a decent physics background, and my understanding of the laws of motion and collisions would help me far more in determining how a computer would act after being thrown through a window.
Don't assume that since you are unable to work out the problem that others can't either.

I fail to see anything in your claims that would make you an expert on how rocks act when they pass through a window, especially considering actual testing and at least one ballistics expert are in disagreement with you.
Actual testing disagrees with me? Great, cite or link please.
 
You have really taken a liking to Frank. Did I mention that Frank believes Amanda and Raffaele are innocent?

You have outdone yourself with your praise of PMF above. I really see no point in continuing this conversation. I was really hoping that you would stand up and defend the group that you belong to. I wasn't asking you to defend Peggy. I was asking you to defend the hate group you proudly participate in. Of course you can't do that so you simply change the subject.


You're the one changing the subject. You're the one who keeps bringing up PMF...the topic, just to remind you, was not PMF. It was about a false article in Oggi, and the fact that certain people have continued to spread them.

You keep waffling on about PMF. Stop changing the subject please.

Have you taken a peep over at Frank's blog? You certainly seem to be running away from that.

And, we all know why.
 
Btw, I'm fine with people believing in the innocence of Amanda and Raf.

I like Frank's standing up, and being a man, about Nara and Stephanoni. And, how he's not afraid of standing up to the Supporters of Amanda...who in his words should STFU, and be intelligent.

And to stop villifying Nara. He says you ( Amada Supporters) are against anyone doing that to Amanda, and yet are guilty of the same thing.

These are excellent points...but you're awfully quiet discussing these issues.

I look forward to your posting there, and taking Frank on. Unless...you're in agreement with him?

So, I wonder how long it will take, to see you, Bruce, Halides, Paul and Candace over there, at Perugia Shock. I can hardly wait :)
 
Btw, I'm fine with people believing in the innocence of Amanda and Raf.

I like Frank's standing up, and being a man, about Nara and Stephanoni. And, how he's not afraid of standing up to the Supporters of Amanda...who in his words should STFU, and be intelligent.

And to stop villifying Nara. He says you ( Amada Supporters) are against anyone doing that to Amanda, and yet are guilty of the same thing.

These are excellent points...but you're awfully quiet discussing these issues.

I look forward to your posting there, and taking Frank on. Unless...you're in agreement with him?

So, I wonder how long it will take, to see you, Bruce, Halides, Paul and Candace over there, at Perugia Shock. I can hardly wait :)

Whose villifying Nara? Questioning whether someone actually remembers events correctly is not villifying them. Have you even reviewed why the defense is attacking her testimony? I'll give you a preview. Its in direct conflict with every scenario that places Knox/Sollecito at the scene of the crime. 2nd, Her testimony is in direct conflict with her own testimony. 3rd, The defense doesn't even believe she could have heard a scream let alone hear footsteps from people fleeing the scene. Its not Nara's fault, the real villian in this scenario is the courts for even accepting her testimony and deeming it reliable. The fact that they will accept testimony even when it contradicts the crime and contradicts itself as being reliable is a serious problem and this type of testimony was repeated by more than 2 witnesses in the trial.

Why do we need to go to Perugia Shock. Your doing just fine here. Though you still haven't answered Bruce's question. Maybe you should go back and post at perugia shock some more and pretend your pro Knox and stir up Frank. Though you seem to have a problem with people taking the wait and see stance rather than condemn OGGI's article. Though I believe Frank is right, that Nara isn't crazy or deaf, it doesn't mean I'm correct. However, if you like I'll give you the url to the Sollecito and Knox appeals documents where you can read how the defense is attacking Nara's testimony, and nothing in that talks about her being deaf or crazy. They don't need Nara to be deaf and crazy. Her testimony speaks for itself.
 
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Don't assume that since you are unable to work out the problem that others can't either.

I did say I couldn't work it out, I said that my 15 years of experience with computers was no use to working it out.

Exactly what part of your experience makes you an expert in how rocks behave when thrown through a window?

Actual testing disagrees with me? Great, cite or link please.

Perhaps you need to read the posts in this thread. Rose posted this, watch the first 20 secs.
 
You're the one changing the subject. You're the one who keeps bringing up PMF...the topic, just to remind you, was not PMF. It was about a false article in Oggi, and the fact that certain people have continued to spread them.

You keep waffling on about PMF. Stop changing the subject please.
I'll help you remember your conversation with Bruce.
1st You make a comment about bruce.
2nd Bruce responds and asks you a question.
3rd You mention its against the rules to talk about PMS, and change the story to talking about Perguia Shock. Which if talking about PMS is against the rules, so would talking about Perugia Shock.
4th Bruce mentions how you seem to like Frank and asks you about the question he asked you in post 2.
5th You accuse Bruce of changing the subject from a question he asked you in post 2 and then for a second time change the subject back to your statement in post 3.

Here i think I got them in order
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7086158&postcount=6843
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7086343&postcount=6854
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7086486&postcount=6859
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7086506&postcount=6861
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7086611&postcount=6864
 
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Btw, I'm fine with people believing in the innocence of Amanda and Raf.

I like Frank's standing up, and being a man, about Nara and Stephanoni. And, how he's not afraid of standing up to the Supporters of Amanda...who in his words should STFU, and be intelligent.

And to stop villifying Nara. He says you ( Amada Supporters) are against anyone doing that to Amanda, and yet are guilty of the same thing.

These are excellent points...but you're awfully quiet discussing these issues.

I look forward to your posting there, and taking Frank on. Unless...you're in agreement with him?

So, I wonder how long it will take, to see you, Bruce, Halides, Paul and Candace over there, at Perugia Shock. I can hardly wait :)


Okay, I finally got around to reading the comments page focusing on Nara on Perugia Shock. I recommend it; a lot of people make a lot of good arguments.

You're right, Frank does stand up for Nara and Patrizia Stefanoni. However, his more important, underlying message is his anger that some innocence supporters are allowing themselves to be distracted by criticism of the "little people," when there is much bigger evil at work -- namely, the police and the judges. Frank labels the police as criminals more than once, and describes them as "...people extremely rough and uncultured, and trained to aggression, and reunited in a pack..." Do you also agree with his take on that?

And you're right; several times, Frank does call the innocenters on the carpet for having a double standard: "It's impressive how they are working in exactly the same way as pack, mediocre judges and stupid media have been doing towards the girl."

Yes, sometimes innocenters have a double standard; we're only human. Personally, I think Frank goes a little overboard here with his defense of Nara and Stefanoni, but maybe he just wants to make sure he doesn't lose any friends or contacts in Perugia because of what is written on his blog.

Frank is known to write emotionally, ironically, sarcastically, even very irritably at times. A few months ago he was ragging on the innocenters for attacking the police and the judges -- the very thing he is urging us to do now! Several of us "took him on" then. Everything blows over.

By the way, it was not Frank who said innocence supporters should STFU, it was Tufa:

Tufa said...

Frank:

I get what you have been saying. I suggest alleged Amanda supporters get with the program or stfu if they don't have something intelligent to say. Attacking Nara is really stupid. Likewise Stefanoni. The facts are not wrong, its the flawed interpretation. Mignini and hot pants Comodi create fantasy, and facts do not support them, why attack facts?

April 13, 2011 2:00 PM
 
The latter, of course. You sound no more qualified than I am to determine what a lump of rock would do when thrown through a window. :confused:

Agreed. This exchange is reminiscent of Sarah Palin claiming a knowledge of international politics because she could "see Russia from her window".

Moreover, even if Amazer had a long career in ballistics, we would still be entitled to know her evidence and reasoning in declaring that the rock allegedly wouldn't have landed where did.
 
Like Martin Luther King I have a dream that those who tortured railroaded and slanderer an innocent young girl,will one day leave the same courtrooms in hand cuffs for prison

The prospect of Mignini Comodi Stefanoni Napoleoni giobbi serving time among prisoners who hate them

While I agree that it would be a perfect outcome to see those responsible for the injustice against Amanda and Raffaele held to account, I don't have any great expectation that it will happen. In the UK, the police officers who provably framed the Guildford Four were never prosecuted because the judge ruled that they "could not get a fair trial" (!!!)

My guess is that Amanda and Raffaele will be paid off and more or less expected to keep quiet; there will be some books, articles and possibly films made about the story; but ultimately the Italian establishment will just sit out the scandal without doing much in the way of putting anything right.

I would be delighted to be shown to be wrong on this: the public needs to be protected against rogue police just as much as against criminals like Rudy Guede.

Quinell Ganong and Nadeau getting what they have coming in the American courts

That might be interesting - but my feeling is that Nadeau in particular has been careful not to make any statements that were directly actionable.
 
Well, now they've had time. And, it still isn't back up. Could, would it, should it..be...because..yes, it was libellous. Not just one newspaper either.

I know, I know, it's a CONSPIRACY, I tell Ya :)


Well, a good test would be whether or not anyone brings a libel action against Bruce's Injustice in Perugia website. The full article is still up on there. AFAIK, there's been no legal action as yet....
 
This is a general response, not only to your two posts, but might explain why I've had some fun at the expense of the idea of the 'PR Campaign' for some time.

Apologies for some redundancies since I was writing my answer to halides and did not see the 'piling on'

Since Marriott also admits this publicly:
We consider every project individually and assemble a team to suit the client's specific needs. We then develop and implement a plan; usually integrating a range of tactics such as earned and paid media, community outreach, ally development, and government relations among other ways of reaching important audiences.
http://www.gogertymarriott.com/whatwedo

And without the signature Googled interpretations of 'media', I am glad you find minutes of merriment from what IMHO is a pretty small stretch.

*Some* may think semi professional bloggers like Frank and Candace (pause to genuflect when mentioning these sources on this Board) as well as less professional but no less prolific bloggers may have been somehow compensated.

To be clear and add a note of finality; I do not have enough evidence to make that claim, but it is not one I find in any way 'amusing'.

I do! :)


I find it utterly hilarious, being as back in the day what set off the kook detectors was the 'accusation' that people were being paid to post against them. Calling the opposition 'conspiracy theorists' whilst claiming that they (or at least some) are being paid as some sort of 'PR campaign' is really funny if you have a somewhat twisted sense of humor as I do. Noticing patterns and coming to the conclusion they must be managed by sinister forces known or unknown is a staple of conspiracy theorists. It suggests an inability to recognize the natural causes of events and unwillingness to incorporate the concept of 'coincidence' into their worldview.

In this case, the fact that the Knox family hired a local PR firm to handle press requests gets extrapolated beyond reality by some to explain every, or nearly so, article negative to the conviction and person coming forward to protest it. At least that is the impression left by regularly perusing PMF, though I've suspicions some of the more astute know it's nonsense. A few months ago one of the more hardheaded regulars over there 'genuflected' in the direction of the 'PR Campaign' but added the insightful bit that the next presidential candidate would do well to hire Gogerty-Marriott, considering the 'success' they'd had with Amanda Knox. I'd like to hope he was slyly implying the world doesn't quite work the way some over there think it does.

However, looking at what you posted from the Marriott website, I wonder if this accusation hasn't had an effect at least on that, as I recall it once included a bit about 'grassroots efforts' or somesuch, thus if that's from the same page as before they must have changed it. I find that funny too. :)

What is it you think this below actually means in real-world terms?

We then develop and implement a plan; usually integrating a range of tactics such as earned and paid media, community outreach, ally development, and government relations among other ways of reaching important audiences.

"Paid media" is commercials, like they (probably) had to run in their effort for the Seattle Seahawks to get that new stadium built. Items like thirty second advocacy ads suggesting all the advantages of having a new stadium in Seattle paid for by the generous taxpayers. That can be a tough sell, ask George Petak. Has anyone seen any of these ads for Amanda Knox? I suppose some might insinuate it means something else, that there's media hacks out there that get 'payola' from this 'PR campaign' when in fact said hacks have editors who approve those stories, and would fire any reporter on the spot if they were being paid by outsiders.

"Earned" media is where Gogerty-Marriott would come in, that's media inherent to the fact that Amanda Knox is real news, and some media outlets would like to do stories on it. This is also the stated reason they were hired, to answer all the media requests coming in after the arrest. Have you ever considered the idea they might have been telling the truth? Imagine what it would be like to all of a sudden be international news and having the phone ring off the hook from people as far away as Britain wanting to talk to you about it? You could keep answering that phone and scheduling on your own, but after a while it might just occur to you to hire someone to do that. Someone who also might be able to tell you the ins and outs of how to appear on TV without looking like a zombie, a blustering fool, or constantly tongue-tied.

This is a story, it's not manufactured by a PR firm to 'sell' to media outlets. Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito were accused of helping Patrick Lumumba Rudy Guede rape and murder Meredith Kercher for utterly bizarre reasons or none at all. It's going to attract attention, it's definitely 'man bites dog' and beyond that there's elements apparent that suggest that Amanda and Raffaele might be innocent, which just makes it all the more appealing to media. If there was no 'story' there'd be no media access, that's not something a PR firm can do in a case like this. Those PR representatives are not mighty magnates dictating terms to the lowly proletarian reporters, they're at times guardians trying to keep the barbarians at the gate and at other times salesmen trying to 'sell' their client, and in this case their story.

Of course access to the family is 'managed.' Why wouldn't it be? Not talking to people they don't want to is their prerogative, what would they really want to say to someone that smeared their daughter all over perdition to sell the story? That would actually do any good, I mean? Reporters don't need access to the family to write about this ongoing event, in fact it's in the family's interest to try to attract them, to tell their side of the story, because there is another side of the story being told, that of the police and prosecutor in Perugia--and by the tabloids which just excoriated her. They also try to protect their clients, negotiate 'no go' areas, but that's something the media has to agree to of their own free will, they can't 'dictate terms' or they may well lose their opportunity. Reporters refused access might not take that kindly, nor incorporate that element into their story, so it might have consequences.

I think there's simply a gross misunderstanding of the power relationship between a PR representative and the press amongst some. The media has the power, and the PR representative tries to access it knowing that precious minutes on the news or column inches is all that outlet really has to offer, and the PR representative is just begging to get his side into that story...but it's the reporter that writes the story and the editor who approves it. The idea that the PR representative has the power and the meek journalist succumbs to their charms and dutifully spits out the talking points and memes presented them is very much 'wag the dog.' Journalists know what talking points and memes are too, you might say they've a professional interest in the subject. ;)

That's what a firm like Gogerty-Marriott would be doing, setting up appointments so the family can tell their side of the story, perhaps helping them prepare so they don't look silly, and taking care of the easy questions and information so the family doesn't have to be bothered by it. Having seen their daughter arrested, charged and convicted, yet obviously believing her innocent like many others, it would be a natural thing to want to tell her side of the story, and they'd probably regret it for the rest of their lives if they didn't.


Here's a chart listing the primetime ad rates for a 30 second commercial in the US from about the time of Amanda's arrest. As you can see access to the TV media costs anywhere from about $50k to roughly $200k with a couple outliers. Being as those lower-rated shows and re-runs pull in about the same ratings as a decent cable news show, a mere 30 second ad on one of those shows probably costs about $50k. Since they're not buying the ads, the Amanda Knox story has to sell them, it must be of interest to enough viewers it justifies the expense in time the network is spending on it. The network knows this, of course, and would soon suffer if it is making its decisions on the basis of whoever called from some PR firm in Seattle. How much does 'access' to the family cost again? Wasn't there a bowling fundraiser recently, I presume some family members were there?

The other idea, the one missing from that quote but that I recall seeing back in the last thread or the previous, that they manufactured a 'grassroots' campaign that might have included Frank Sfarzo, Candace Dempsey, Bruce Fisher, Steve Moore, Douglas Preston et al, and perhaps even posters here like LondonJohn who was a prime 'suspect' at one point at least, is ignoring the very essence of what a real grassroots campaign is. It is an 'uprising' of (oftentimes) outraged people to promote some cause or project. You don't need to pay them, it becomes a passion, why would you pay for what you get for free? I would think in Douglas Preston's case they couldn't pay him not to speak out if Mignini made the news again.

An issue like this is naturally going to attract some people, for various different reasons, just like you can find other websites on a variety of political issues or causes, none of whom are being paid. To what end would they 'seed' the internet with 'astroturf' posters? Anyone with a computer could do that, Gogerty-Marriott is being paid for what they know about accessing the traditional media. The last 'Continuation' thread lasted seven months, included 25k posts, and garnered a grand total of a little more than half a million views, many of them obviously the people participating. In contrast a cable news show might pull in that many viewers in one night. The ones who enter the thread are the ones already interested, in some way or another, whereas with a news show you have the opportunity to expose currently uninterested people to the issue.

The event the other night should have been proof positive there's no coordinated 'PR Campaign' that extends beyond the booking of TV appearances and the like. Those people up there were volunteers, true 'grassroots' activists in every sense of the term. If there was any event that could have been orchestrated by a PR campaign, this would be it. However, did you notice some of them still had some things wrong? I did, they're the sorts of mistakes a coached PR 'representative' wouldn't continue to make, they'd be corrected after every appearance as they interfere with the 'message.'
 
Btw, I'm fine with people believing in the innocence of Amanda and Raf.

I like Frank's standing up, and being a man, about Nara and Stephanoni. And, how he's not afraid of standing up to the Supporters of Amanda...who in his words should STFU, and be intelligent.

And to stop villifying Nara. He says you ( Amada Supporters) are against anyone doing that to Amanda, and yet are guilty of the same thing.

These are excellent points...but you're awfully quiet discussing these issues.

I look forward to your posting there, and taking Frank on. Unless...you're in agreement with him?

So, I wonder how long it will take, to see you, Bruce, Halides, Paul and Candace over there, at Perugia Shock. I can hardly wait :)


There's a big difference between vilifying someone and questioning the reliability of their evidence in a murder trial.

Nara Capezzali had lost her husband only some four months before the murder, and was 68 years old. She claims she heard "a special scream, heart-rending to the point that after she heard it she could not get back to sleep; a scream the likes of which she had never heard before." (Massei p96 English trans). Yet she didn't wake her daughter, who shared her apartment. Nor did she contact authorities, or take any steps to find out the source of this blood-curdling "scream of death".

What's more, only one other ear witness (whose testimony is also flaky) claims to have heard this loud scream. A scream which would have pierced the quiet night if it had occurred. A scream which allegedly happened at 11.30-11.45pm on the night of a public holiday: a time when dozens - it not hundreds - of people would have been awake in the vicinity of the girls' cottage, with more than a few actually out on the streets nearby (including, of course, the mighty Curatolo, who never reported hearing a scream despite being roughly equidistant from Meredith's window to Sig.a Capezzali, and not behind double-glazed windows).

My own personal view of this is that Sig.a Capezzali never heard anything whatsoever. I think that she imagined the whole thing. I believe that the relatively recent death of her husband may have played a part in her "hearing" what she thought she heard. I wouldn't want to make a call on whether she genuinely thinks that she heard this scream, or whether she actually knows that she didn't hear such a scream. Either way, I believe the story is no more than a figment of her imagination.

PS: The forensic scientist's surname is spelled "Stefanoni". I know you'd like to get people's names correct eh, capalladin? :D
 
There's a big difference between vilifying someone and questioning the reliability of their evidence in a murder trial.

Nara Capezzali had lost her husband only some four months before the murder, and was 68 years old. She claims she heard "a special scream, heart-rending to the point that after she heard it she could not get back to sleep; a scream the likes of which she had never heard before." (Massei p96 English trans). Yet she didn't wake her daughter, who shared her apartment. Nor did she contact authorities, or take any steps to find out the source of this blood-curdling "scream of death".


And -- as has been discussed many times before -- given the type of attack, it is unlikely Meredith screamed at all, much less screamed such a memorable scream as Nara describes.
 
Perhaps the intention was to summon Sollecito first, induce him to change his story, and then to apprehend Knox later that night after she had gone to sleep, in order to enhance the stress of her interrogation. If she had inadvertently forestalled this plan, it might account for the irritation at her presence in the Questura during Sollecito's interrogation.

That could be too, but that would have required an arrest and a lawyer present for the questioning. I think these cops preferred to skirt around the law rather than outright break it, at least at this point. Also Giobbi was the one to give the order and was pretty specific in his memory of it, and he came after Napoleoni, thus was aware of her testimony and knowingly refuted it.

One of the many things that intrigues me about this case is how Knox ended up under suspicion so quickly in what would appear to be a fairly obvious sexual homicide. Surely, Umbria must have its share of convicted sexual offenders who would have attracted greater interest from the police. Did they really think that no one could have climbed in through Romanelli's window? Was it a misinterpretation of that shadowy figure on the parking garage tape with an incorrect time stamp?

I suspect it was a combination of a number of things that made it look like Amanda was associated with Patrick the night of the murder. The text message, the 'black hair,' Patrick changing his SMS card and thus looking like he was around the area of the cottage as opposed to where he should have been, that CCTV camera, and perhaps that they thought Amanda was acting oddly. I also suspect they wanted to work on Amanda as the judge would tell her she was purposely detained before her mother got there, thus the all-nighter was planned. I think they wanted to break the 'weakest link' and guessed that the foreign exchange girl would be easier than the more worldly business owner who probably knew better how to deal with the police.

I believe it was Nina Burliegh who made a curious comment about this case, to the effect that she had lost count of the number of Dottores who had told her that burglers don't kill. Perhaps this type of crime is viewed through a markedly different cultural filter in Italy than it would be in North America? At any rate, I do think that Skeptic Ginger was on to something, at least metaphorically speaking, when she asserted that Knox was convicted due to a cartwheel.

The other one along these lines I've heard is the dedication the Italian police supposedly have to the odds that in a case like this the guilty party usually comes from within the household. You remember those Agatha Christie novels where they always mock the idea of a transient hobo, thus it must be someone inside the house? I wonder just how much credence ILE might give to that concept.
 
And -- as has been discussed many times before -- given the type of attack, it is unlikely Meredith screamed at all, much less screamed such a memorable scream as Nara describes.

Well exactly. But, in fairness, a scream can't be ruled out in principle - for example, perhaps Meredith might have screamed out when Guede started to remove her jeans, prior to the stabbings.

Of course, the point is, if Meredith had indeed screamed out with such blood-curdling ferocity and volume that it was clearly heard by a woman through a double-glazed window, some 50-60 yards away from the cottage and on the diametrically opposite side to Meredith's room and window, it's virtually inconceivable that many other people in the vicinity wouldn't have heard the same scream.
 
Don't assume that since you are unable to work out the problem that others can't either.


Actual testing disagrees with me? Great, cite or link please.

Classic. Guilter makes an unsupported claim, followed by bogus credentials but no evidence; others point out claim has been shown to be wrong; guilter challenges doubters for evidence showing original claim was wrong. This is another pattern in this discussion. What happened to "burden of proof"?

The evidence is that the rock came through the glass, smacked against the interior shutter leaving a mark visible in photos, then dropped to the floor quite close to the window, where it was found. There isn't much more to be said.
 
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