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Talk to me about babies and the unvaccinated.

Ginger - do you know if this booster is something I can get while pregnant? I have this all on my list of things to ask my doc at our next appointment, but I'm just curious now.

Also, is there anything else I should get? I haven't heard of a measles outbreak or anything, but is there a "new mom" schedule of vaccines? Do I need an MMR booster, just to be safe?

Jumping in here real quick, when I had my baby in Nov-09, I was given the Tdap in the hospital before we went home. And I had my flu shots a week or two before I gave birth.

If you have people around you who would normally be in contact with your child, and you know they are unvaccinated, don't allow them around your child!! Explain, educate, and insist on these things, especially with the resurgence of some of these illnesses, like pertussis.

ETA: I think they also gave family members, fathers, grandparents, etc, the option of getting the Tdap at the hospital as well.
 
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I didn't get any. There was one video on infant care, I believe, they had us watch. My son is almost 22 so this would have been 22 years ago. [politics sidetrack]A long time ago we had public health nurses who visited all new moms but the funding was cut for that decades ago, and now the latest cuts include cutting WIC programs as well. Those rich people need their tax cuts. :( [/politics sidetrack]

My son was born in January. There was a video and at least 2 pamphlets on SIDs alone. My wife's doctor has known her since she was a child also and visited frequently giving us information on a lot of topics. We had to sign forms on each vaccine and there was a pamphlet for each, and some other pamphlets about general health and a lot of other stuff.

But now that I think about it I'm assuming it's probably not that way at every hospital.
 
Okay -- thank you for this. I'm sure I haven't had this (or my husband) since the last vaccines we got were in college, and that was long before 2005.

I was reading up on pertussis, and the CDC says you be a carrier, even if you've been infected or vaccinated. They also say the only way to accurate test for it is a nasal swab test, and most doctors don't do that routinely. My mom has had a persistent cough for the last year, but her doctor has never tested her for this. She freaked out when I told her and called to demand a test.

I'm forwarding this information to all of our immediate family. I'm giving them a grandkid -- the least they can do is get a shot!

...

My oldest son (who is also 22) had seizures as an infant, so he was only given the DT vaccine, no pertussis. So I actually asked the parent of any new kid he came in contact with their vaccine status. I only had one person get indignant and claimed her doctor said they were unnecessary. Oh, well... I didn't like that "I'm better than you" mom, so no great loss.

Good luck, and stay well!
 
It is true that infants can't receive the pertussis vaccine until a certian age, which is why herd immunity is so important! And the accusation is spot on! http://factsnotfantasy.com/vaccines.php has some good info to dispell many of the outright lies spread by the anti-vax pro-disease nutters.

As to precations, make sure that everyone you know is up to date on their shots. Follow the vaccination schedule. And educate people around you.
And, if any of them try to indoctrinate you the other way, kick their butts to China - and give them a second one from me. If they are friends with unvac. youngsters you should, I fear, drop them.

I like kids and I loathe parental units (or anyone else) doing stuff that harms them - especially on ignorance and stupidity (but, any other way also).:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:
 
I don't think they'll give you a booster while you're pregnant. Very, very few drugs have been scientifically tested on pregnant women for obvious reasons. Even if such a shot were safe, I doubt anybody would want to take the risk of finding that out.


I'm not sure about human medicine, but in veterinary medicine it is de rigeur to give certain booster vaccinations in the last third of pregnancy, to ensure the dam has maximum antibodies circulating to pass on to the neonate in the colostrum.

In man the passive immunity is acquired by the foetus in utero, but the principle is the same.

Rolfe.
 
But now that I think about it I'm assuming it's probably not that way at every hospital.


We had to watch a video about shaken baby syndrome. For our second child, we had to sign a form saying we'd seen the video and remembered most of the important parts.
 
We had to watch a video about shaken baby syndrome. For our second child, we had to sign a form saying we'd seen the video and remembered most of the important parts.

Would the important parts be "don't shake a baby"?
 
Okay -- thank you for this. I'm sure I haven't had this (or my husband) since the last vaccines we got were in college, and that was long before 2005.

I was reading up on pertussis, and the CDC says you be a carrier, even if you've been infected or vaccinated. They also say the only way to accurate test for it is a nasal swab test, and most doctors don't do that routinely. My mom has had a persistent cough for the last year, but her doctor has never tested her for this. She freaked out when I told her and called to demand a test.

I'm forwarding this information to all of our immediate family. I'm giving them a grandkid -- the least they can do is get a shot!

Ginger - do you know if this booster is something I can get while pregnant? I have this all on my list of things to ask my doc at our next appointment, but I'm just curious now.

Also, is there anything else I should get? I haven't heard of a measles outbreak or anything, but is there a "new mom" schedule of vaccines? Do I need an MMR booster, just to be safe?
Poor grandma, one does not cough for a year with pertussis, rather it is more like months. Of course, anyone with a persistent cough needs to have a medical evaluation. It could be anything from a chronic heart or lung condition to a few rare infections (still unlikely if the cough has really been going on that long). But you need not worry that your mom's cough is pertussis. It does not sound like it.

OK, back to the other stuff. It just so happens the CDC has addressed the Tdap and pregnancy question.

Prevention of Pertussis, Tetanus, and Diphtheria Among Pregnant and Postpartum Women and Their Infants
Recommendations of the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP)


You should look through the whole paper but it sounds like this is the key part for you:
As with most inactivated vaccines and toxoids, pregnancy is not a contraindication for use of Tdap. Although the safety and immunogenicity of Tdap is expected to be similar in pregnant and nonpregnant women, few data on the safety of Tdap for women, fetuses, and pregnancy outcomes are available, and no information is available on the immunogenicity of Tdap in pregnant women. Vaccinating pregnant women with a single dose of Tdap might provide a degree of protection against pertussis to the infant in early life through transplacental maternal antibody, but evidence supporting this hypothesis is lacking. A concern is the unknown effect of potential interference by maternal antibody on the ability of the infant to mount an adequate immune response when the infant receives pediatric DTaP or conjugate vaccines containing tetanus toxoid or diphtheria toxoid.

In special situations, administration of Tdap during pregnancy might be warranted for pregnant women who were not vaccinated previously with Tdap. Health-care providers who choose to administer Tdap to pregnant women should discuss with the women the potential risks and benefits of immunization including the lack of data on Tdap administered during pregnancy or its unknown effects on active immunization of their infant. The following recommendations are intended to provide guidance to clinicians until additional information is available.

1. Routine Tdap Vaccination

1-A. Recommendations for Use of Postpartum Tdap

For women who have not received Tdap previously (including women who are breastfeeding), Tdap is recommended as soon as feasible in the immediate postpartum period to protect the women from pertussis and reduce the risk for exposing their infants to pertussis. The postpartum Tdap should be administered before discharge from the hospital or birthing center. If Tdap cannot be administered at or before discharge, the dose should be administered as soon as feasible thereafter. Elevated levels of pertussis antibodies in the mother are likely within 1--2 weeks after vaccination.
My clinical opinion with this vaccine and pregnancy is, if you got a deep puncture wound, I would not hesitate to give you a Tdap booster. If you were in your first trimester (and no puncture wound), I tend to wait. It's not that the vaccine is an issue, it's that spontaneous miscarriage is common in the first trimester and one would not want a parent fearing they caused the miscarriage by some decision that they made. If you are in your third trimester, I would base the decision to vaccinate before or after delivery on the rate of pertussis in the immediate community and your age, history and likelihood of exposure.

So let your OBGYN help you decide if you are going to get the vaccine before or after delivery.


As for people carrying pertussis without symptoms, I think the issue is more that pertussis looks like a mild cold for the first week, so early cases are missed. And, the cough is not always typical, so those cases are missed. But get the vaccine, use reasonable precautions and don't worry about the things that are rare and not avoidable without extreme measures. Those extreme measures are not called for, the reasonable measures are called for.

There are many things that pose a risk to you and your infant. The way to deal with this situation is to manage risks, not think you can eliminate all risk. You will go nuts if you worry about everything. Managing risk means is you take all the easy risk reduction measures: vaccinations, check the smoke alarm batteries, seat belts and car seats, stuff like that. These are low cost high benefit measures.

Then you look at risks and the cost of avoiding the risk and make informed decisions. Decide where risk reduction is reasonable, feasible, affordable and you reduce risk as much as you can. This is where factual information comes in to play.

Take the pertussis vaccine and the following hypothetical scenario: you and your husband get your boosters. You are not exposed to anyone with pertussis that you know of and it is not occurring in your community in large numbers. You or your husband come down with a cold. Should you worry or take any extra precautions?

No, that would be unreasonable. The risk would be extremely low and completely isolating a family member with a cold from an infant is extremely costly in terms of time and resources. Good hand washing and make reasonable effort to prevent spread within the household is feasible, but it is not possible to prevent every infection your child is going to be exposed to. That's why I say to think of it as risk reduction, not risk elimination. You'd be surprised how far something as simple as hand washing goes to prevent the spread of infection.

Where most people go wrong is overestimating some risks and ignoring many common risk reduction measures. No matter how much we harp on the importance of smoke alarms, look how many people die in fires because they didn't have a working smoke alarm. It's so unnecessary. Accidental drownings should be extremely rare, but they aren't. Kids should not be able to play with guns and accidentally shoot friends, but they do.

These are the things that are easily prevented. If we could take care of those things, then maybe it would be reasonable to worry about the rare stuff that is costly to prevent.


As for the other vaccines, there is an adult vaccine recommendation just like we have one for kids.
 
I don't think they'll give you a booster while you're pregnant. Very, very few drugs have been scientifically tested on pregnant women for obvious reasons. Even if such a shot were safe, I doubt anybody would want to take the risk of finding that out.
Live vaccines are contraindicated in pregnancy but even in those cases we have enough data collected to suggest these vaccines are probably safe.

Non-live vaccines are typically safe in pregnancy. There is a common myth about vaccines and pregnancy not based on the data. After decades of women getting vaccines when they were unaware they were pregnant has given us the data we wouldn't have directly tested on pregnant women.

There is an extensive discussion of the issues with giving pertussis vaccine during pregnancy in the link I cited (and I see Emet also linked to a related source). One thing about this vaccine is we did not have an adult dose until the last 6 years so we don't have those decades of accidental data collected. The recommendation can only be based on theoretical risk estimate and the limited data that has been collected. That's why one takes a lot of other things into consideration with one's patients and makes an individual based decision.

The following is an example of the data we have on Tdap in pregnancy:
No prelicensure studies were conducted with Tdap in pregnant women. In 2005, to increase understanding of the safety of Tdap in relationship to pregnancy, both Tdap manufacturers established registries to solicit voluntary reports of pregnant women who received Tdap during pregnancy or who received Tdap and were determined subsequently to be pregnant (212,213). The main utility of the registries is to signal the possibility and nature of any risk (214). All women who are vaccinated with Tdap at any time during pregnancy should be reported to the registry as early as possible during the pregnancy. Information from pregnancy registries differs from surveillance reports, which are used to evaluate outcomes among women when an adverse outcome of pregnancy already might have occurred (e.g., an infant born with a birth defect) (214).

As of December 31, 2007, GlaxoSmithKline had received five reports of pregnancy exposure to BOOSTRIX® within 28 days before conception or during any trimester of pregnancy, including two in the first trimester, one in the second trimester, and two during an unknown trimester. Among the two first-trimester exposures, one subject delivered a normal infant at 33 weeks' gestation, and one subject was lost to follow-up. Of the remaining exposures, information on the outcome of two pregnancies was not yet available, and one subject was lost to follow-up (GlaxoSmithKline, unreported data, 2008).

As of November 23, 2007, sanofi pasteur had received 107 spontaneous reports and 47 reports from postlicensing surveillance studies of exposure to ADACEL® during pregnancy. For these 154 reports, pregnancy outcomes were 68 live infants (including 64 term deliveries [one with a congenital anomaly] and four preterm deliveries [one at 28 weeks after complications of pregnancy, labor, and delivery; two at 35 weeks for preeclampsia; and one at 35 weeks for breech presentation]); three spontaneous abortions (at 9, 51, and 99 days postvaccination); three induced abortions; and one fetal demise (at 35 days postvaccination). For 32 reports, either the outcome of pregnancy was unknown or the patient was lost to follow-up, and for 47 reports, information on outcome of pregnancy was not yet available (sanofi pasteur, unreported data, 2008).

A retrospective survey of 4,524 health-care personnel vaccinated in a mass vaccination campaign conducted in 2006 provides additional information regarding adverse reactions in pregnant women within 14 days of receiving Tdap (ADACEL®) (215,216). Pregnancy was not an exclusion criterion for Tdap; 24 health-care personnel who received Tdap identified themselves as pregnant at the time of vaccination. Among 2,676 (59%) survey respondents, 1,792 (67%) received Tdap at an interval of >2 years after their most recent dose of Td; 17 of these respondents identified themselves as pregnant. Adverse reactions reported by the 17 pregnant women were compared with reactions reported by 472 nonpregnant female personnel aged 18--44 years. The frequencies of injection-site pain, redness, and swelling of moderate to severe intensity were not greater among the pregnant women than among the nonpregnant women. Three of the pregnant women reported feeling "feverish" after receiving Tdap. None of the 17 pregnant women reported seeking nonroutine medical attention for the adverse reaction (215,216). Among the pregnant women vaccinated with Tdap, results of the outcome of pregnancy were known for 10 women; no pregnancy resulted in premature birth or abnormality in the infant when assessed shortly after birth (Elizabeth A. Talbot, Dartmouth College, Lebanon, New Hampshire, personal communication, 2007).


As for your comments about the Science Daily article, Infant Immune System Is Stronger Than Many Parents Think, you demonstrate the difficulty getting just the right message out to parents. It's like Goldilocks, too hot, too cold or just right.

Yes, infants are resilient. But they are not immortal. The aim of that article is to address the anti-vaxer complaint that somehow we are overloading infant immune systems by giving multiple vaccines at a single time. Giving multiple vaccines together is the anti-vaxer fear du jour. The article is not saying with a little maternal antibody newborns are as safe as an adult. Infants have some things they are protected from but other things they are at a greater risk for.

Hand washing, vaccines and common infection prevention measures are still warranted. Paranoid isolation, not so much. :)
 
Ah, okay. I also found this
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/spec-grps/pregnant.htm

So a tdap right after delivery and a flu shot this fall.


They routinely vaccinate for Hep B now, in infants? Interesting. I don't think I remember getting that one as an adult.
I see you found the Tdap link on your own.

We began vaccinating all kids for hep B in the mid 90s in the US. In a couple countries like Taiwan, they started in the early 80s. The risk of hep B is greater in different groups of adults. So when making public health decisions to recommend vaccines, one looks at the cost and benefit.

In the whole population, there was enough hep B to warrant the cost of vaccinating all kids. But when it comes to adults, we look at specific risk categories rather than vaccinating everyone. It all has to do with how the statistics work out.

Hep B for adults: health care workers, garbage handlers, and other occupations at risk of blood exposure; people with an infected partner, people with multiple sexual partners, men who have sex with men, and IV drug users; and finally some people with other medical conditions: hemodialysis, hepatitis C infected, and a few other conditions where a lot of blood products are needed.
 
My oldest son (who is also 22) had seizures as an infant, so he was only given the DT vaccine, no pertussis. So I actually asked the parent of any new kid he came in contact with their vaccine status. I only had one person get indignant and claimed her doctor said they were unnecessary. Oh, well... I didn't like that "I'm better than you" mom, so no great loss.

Good luck, and stay well!
There is no recommendation yet to vaccinate kids who skipped the P in the DPT and are now adults (because they would need the series of 3 doses). It might be considered in the future. But if your son needed a Td now, he could probably get a Tdap. Be sure to go by the current guidelines and not some automatic "can't have it" position.

From the recommendations for teens but it would also be the same for someone 22 yrs old.
Not Contraindications or Precautions

The following conditions are not contraindications or precautions for Tdap or Td, and adolescents with these conditions can receive a dose of Tdap or Td if otherwise indicated. The conditions in italics are precautions for pediatric DTP/DTaP but are not contraindications or precautions for Tdap vaccination in adolescents (1).

Temperature >105° F (>40.5° C) within 48 hours after pediatric DTP/DTaP not attributable to another cause;
Collapse or shock-like state (hypotonic hyporesponsive episode) within 48 hours after pediatric DTP/DTaP;
Persistent crying lasting >3 hours, occurring within 48 hours after pediatric DTP/DTaP;
Convulsions with or without fever, occurring within 3 days after pediatric DTP/DTaP;
History of an extensive limb swelling reaction following pediatric DTP/DTaP or Td that was not an Arthus reaction (see Safety Considerations for Adolescent Vaccination with Tdap or Td section for descriptions of ELS and Arthus reactions);
Stable neurologic disorder including well-controlled seizures, a history of seizure disorder that has resolved, and cerebral palsy;
Brachial neuritis;
Latex allergies other than anaphylactic allergies (e.g., a history of contact allergy to latex gloves) (162). The tip and rubber plunger of the BOOSTRIX® needleless syringe contain latex. The BOOSTRIX® single dose vial and ADACEL™preparations contain no latex. Some Td products contain latex (consult package inserts for details);
Breastfeeding;
Immunosuppression, including persons with human immunodeficiency virus (HIV). The immunogenicity of Tdap in persons with immunosuppression has not been studied and could be suboptimal;
Intercurrent minor illness; and
Use of antimicrobials.


There are always antibiotics for adults who do not have vaccine immunity to pertussis.
 
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Thank you for all of this info.

I can't say I won't remain paranoid, but I'll try to be as "healthy" about it as I can :)

My Doc says she'll go over all my fears/concerns/questions at the next appointment.

I appreciate everyone's patience and advice. I know some of these questions sound reactionary, and you've probably discussed them before, but I also figure it can't hurt to ask a stupid question if you get an intelligent answer in response :)
 
Thank you for all of this info.

I can't say I won't remain paranoid, but I'll try to be as "healthy" about it as I can :)

My Doc says she'll go over all my fears/concerns/questions at the next appointment.

I appreciate everyone's patience and advice. I know some of these questions sound reactionary, and you've probably discussed them before, but I also figure it can't hurt to ask a stupid question if you get an intelligent answer in response :)

No worries, AmandaM. :)

I don't have children, and don't know how far along you are. But I do remember a lot of my girlfriends complaining that when they were pregnant, good friends thought nothing of telling them all sorts of bad things.

Here's wishing your pregnancy and delivery be uneventful, and you raise a critical thinker. ;)

Best wishes.
 
Thank you so much :) We're just finishing the first trimester, so we've a long way to go yet, but well-wishes are ALWAYS welcome :)

Thanks :)
 
... I can't say I won't remain paranoid, but I'll try to be as "healthy" about it as I can :)

My Doc says she'll go over all my fears/concerns/questions at the next appointment. ...

Just try to remember your own childhood -- you survived it just fine, right? How concerned were your parents about communicable diseases?
 
There is no recommendation yet to vaccinate kids who skipped the P in the DPT and are now adults (because they would need the series of 3 doses). It might be considered in the future. But if your son needed a Td now, he could probably get a Tdap. Be sure to go by the current guidelines and not some automatic "can't have it" position.

...
.

He was given Tdap a couple of years ago, along with his annual influenza vaccine. He has a severe heart condition that merits extra precaution.
 

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