Can anybody help me find a logical explanation for this stuff?

[Zanders]

'Mystical truths' is an oxymoron.

That you put quote marks around the word 'truths' yourself seems to indicate that you at least partially understand this already.

Your OP asked "Can anybody help me find a logical explanation for this stuff?" but it's looking more and more as though what you should have written was "No matter how many people give me a logical explanation for this stuff, I'm going to keep believing it anyway."

It's not that I want to beleive it, it's that I want to make sure that there is not something of note going on here.

When I started this thread it was a scattered mess of links and such, but now I am trying to be more clear. I still want explanations, I just keep finding other things to point out. I'm saying what I notice about it and I'm seeing what everyone here thinks about it. I didn't bring up some of the issues I am talking about on the latest pages back at the start, like the thing about the similar messages and experiences.

 

[dlorde]

It's not that I want to beleive it, it's that I want to make sure that there is not something of note going on here.

You seem to have read more about Swedenborg and his ideas & stories than anyone on this forum without finding anything of substantial value, yet you're still uncertain whether there will be something of 'value' on the next page or in the next book. Doesn't that tell you something? People can spin out all kinds of mythical, mystical stories, always leaving the 'value' punchline dangling, because they're making it up - they don't have to provide any real value as long as they can keep the whole story going and keep the audience interested and looking for more. They pander to the desire to be special - to have wealth, or to have esoteric knowledge, skills, or abilities. They offer promises that are never realised - a fantasy.

It's how all the classic scams work - the Nigerian 'Advance-Fee' fraud, the Ponzi scheme, psychic services, religions, cults, etc. All promise great rewards, but you never quite seem to get there before your money, or your patience, or your life itself is exhausted. Usually the best you can do is to convince yourself you feel better, or find yourself a place in the hierarchy of scammers - become a believer with a fixed smile, or a faker and participate in the pyramid of delusion and deception.

I don't know enough about Swedenborg to know whether he was deliberately deceptive or not, but you seem to have dug fairly deep without finding anything satisfying or substantial. It seems to me that if there was anything substantial to find, you'd have found it by now. Don't fall for the Sunk Cost Fallacy.

 

[Akhenaten]

Don't fall for the Sunk Cost Fallacy.

I knew there was a proper name for that but I couldn't get 'money pit' out of my head.

Many thanks.

 

[Helen]

I don't know enough about Swedenborg to know whether he was deliberately deceptive or not, but you seem to have dug fairly deep without finding anything satisfying or substantial. It seems to me that if there was anything substantial to find, you'd have found it by now.

Swedenborg was considered quite crazy by many of his contemporaries, the eminently sensible Kellberg, among others. He was, however, a fascinating person, a scientist and a controversial ideologist, so I can understand why you have become interested in him, Zanders. I find him immensly entertaining! But really, visiting heaven? Meeting god and angels and demons?

Zanders, you have the intelligence you need to realise that dlorde is right; if there was anything to find, you, and others, would have found it, in Swedenborg or in any other mystic, a long time ago.

 

[PixyMisa]

Outlining the mystical "truths" contained in the writings. And I think that it might take some understanding of the character of Swedenborg to really get the full importance of what it points out.

If these mystical truths were valuable and important, there would be evidence of this. Someone would have applied them and achieved something. If they were truly significant, Swedenborg's character would be irrelevant; truth, after all, has the singular distinction of being true.

But no, nothing.

 

[Zanders]

If these mystical truths were valuable and important, there would be evidence of this. Someone would have applied them and achieved something. If they were truly significant, Swedenborg's character would be irrelevant; truth, after all, has the singular distinction of being true.

But no, nothing.

Many people have claimed to have had positive results after discovering the "truths" and applying them to their lives. Of course, such claims really have little value. The (obnoxious) review I posted earlier said "Bring your skepticism, the more the better", basically making a statement similar to the "chaos magic" thread saying to try it and see for yourself.

Most spiritualists and channelers seem to claim that there are spirits living in different "planes" on other planets. Swedenborg seems to have been the first to hint at this, but it was never elaborated on until later writers. I wonder if they read his works or it just came about by coincidence, but Blavatsky and others talked about communicating with such beings from other planets as well. Eventually the concept developed that the beings lived in a different plane that made life possible there, or that it was an "etheric plane" or whatever.

 

[steenkh]

Most spiritualists and channelers seem to claim that there are spirits living in different "planes" on other planets. Swedenborg seems to have been the first to hint at this, but it was never elaborated on until later writers.

I doubt that this was such a great achievement. People have at all times believed in gods, fairies, and other invisible things. The idea that these invisible and undetectable entities live somewhere outside the real world does not strike me as particularly new.

 

[PixyMisa]

Many people have claimed to have had positive results after discovering the "truths" and applying them to their lives. Of course, such claims really have little value. The (obnoxious) review I posted earlier said "Bring your skepticism, the more the better", basically making a statement similar to the "chaos magic" thread saying to try it and see for yourself.

Right. People make the claim, but there's never any evidence.

Most spiritualists and channelers seem to claim that there are spirits living in different "planes" on other planets. Swedenborg seems to have been the first to hint at this, but it was never elaborated on until later writers.

I'm pretty sure the Babylonians got there first:

There are no specific written records explaining Mesopotamian religious cosmology that survive to us today. Nonetheless, modern scholars have examined various accounts, and created what is believed to be an at least partially accurate depiction of Mesopotamian cosmology.[6] In the Epic of Creation, dated to 1200 BCE, it explains that the god Marduk killed the mother goddess Tiamat and used half her body to create the earth, and the other half to create both the paradise of šamû and the netherworld of irṣitu.[7] A document from a similar period stated that the unvierse was a spheroid, with three levels of šamû, where the gods dwelt, and where the stars existed, above the three levels of earth below it.[8]

I wonder if they read his works or it just came about by coincidence, but Blavatsky and others talked about communicating with such beings from other planets as well.

Lucian wrote about travelling to other planets in his True Story, which predates Swedenborg by a millennium and a half.

Eventually the concept developed that the beings lived in a different plane that made life possible there, or that it was an "etheric plane" or whatever.

Yes, which is convenient in that it has no coherent definition at all.

 

[tsig]

Many people have claimed to have had positive results after discovering the "truths" and applying them to their lives. Of course, such claims really have little value. The (obnoxious) review I posted earlier said "Bring your skepticism, the more the better", basically making a statement similar to the "chaos magic" thread saying to try it and see for yourself.

Most spiritualists and channelers seem to claim that there are spirits living in different "planes" on other planets. Swedenborg seems to have been the first to hint at this, but it was never elaborated on until later writers. I wonder if they read his works or it just came about by coincidence, but Blavatsky and others talked about communicating with such beings from other planets as well. Eventually the concept developed that the beings lived in a different plane that made life possible there, or that it was an "etheric plane" or whatever.

Do you believe there are spirits living on other planes?

 

[tsig]

Many people have claimed to have had positive results after discovering the "truths" and applying them to their lives. Of course, such claims really have little value. The (obnoxious) review I posted earlier said "Bring your skepticism, the more the better", basically making a statement similar to the "chaos magic" thread saying to try it and see for yourself.

Most spiritualists and channelers seem to claim that there are spirits living in different "planes" on other planets. Swedenborg seems to have been the first to hint at this, but it was never elaborated on until later writers. I wonder if they read his works or it just came about by coincidence, but Blavatsky and others talked about communicating with such beings from other planets as well. Eventually the concept developed that the beings lived in a different plane that made life possible there, or that it was an "etheric plane" or whatever.

There is no new thing under the sun.

The Bhagavad Gītā (Sanskrit: भगवद्गीता, IPA: [ˈbʱəɡəʋəd̪ ɡiːˈtɑː], Song of God), also more simply known as Gita, is a sacred Hindu scripture, though its philosophies and insights are intended to reach beyond the scope of religion and to humanity as a whole .

Krishna counsels Arjuna on the greater idea of dharma, or universal harmony and duty. He begins with the tenet that the soul (Atman) is eternal and immortal.[31] Any 'death' on the battlefield would involve only the shedding of the body, whereas the soul is permanent.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhagavad_Gita

 

[Akhenaten]

Do you believe there are spirits living on other planes?

I do.

 

[Apology]

There is no new thing under the sun.

The Bhagavad Gītā (Sanskrit: भगवद्गीता, IPA: [ˈbʱəɡəʋəd̪ ɡiːˈtɑː], Song of God), also more simply known as Gita, is a sacred Hindu scripture, though its philosophies and insights are intended to reach beyond the scope of religion and to humanity as a whole .

Krishna counsels Arjuna on the greater idea of dharma, or universal harmony and duty. He begins with the tenet that the soul (Atman) is eternal and immortal.[31] Any 'death' on the battlefield would involve only the shedding of the body, whereas the soul is permanent.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhagavad_Gita

The Bhagavad Gita is probably my favorite woo book ever. Even though it's 99% crap, the 1% that isn't crap is really profound and helped shaped my attitude towards life, especially in the face of adversity. It really helped me to end self-pity-festivals.

 

[Zanders]

Something I just found while reading the article on out-of-body experiences on the Skeptics dictionary immediately reminded me of something I mentioned in this and post and the "two guardian angels" thing I mentioned on this page.

At the bottom of the Out-of-body-experience, he said this.

For example, one of my students has been having OBEs since she was seven. She's now 19 and says she has six or more OBEs a year. They occur only at night when she is in bed and they are all spontaneous. Even though she was, and remains, frightened by these experiences (because she fears she is dying and will not return to her body), she told me she used to think everybody had them. She's been to heaven and has seen Jesus and her guardian angels (she says we all have two). They were very large and dressed in white, though Jesus wore a purple sash.

Well, there is the purple and the two guardian angels thing. Of course this link implies that the purple sash was used in artistic portrayals of Jesus, so the purple thing might be answered. I still wonder about the two angels thing people seem to agree on.

 

[wardenclyffe]

I still wonder about the two angels thing people seem to agree on.

Yes, some people seem to agree that there are two guardian angels. Some people think there's only one. Some think we each have an army of guardian angels. There are probably some who think three, five, twelve.

When you say "people seem to agree," you have to include the word some.

I have yet to see evidence that there are any guardian angels or any angels of any type, so I don't agree.

What made this account so compelling to you?

Ward

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Something I just found while reading the article on out-of-body experiences on the Skeptics dictionary immediately reminded me of something I mentioned in this and post and the "two guardian angels" thing I mentioned on this page.

At the bottom of the Out-of-body-experience, he said this.

Well, there is the purple and the two guardian angels thing. Of course this link implies that the purple sash was used in artistic portrayals of Jesus, so the purple thing might be answered. I still wonder about the two angels thing people seem to agree on.

Regardless of anything else, that's a typical hypnagogic hallucination. I've had a few, they can be very convincing and are what you'd imagine when you read about an out of body experience - it feels like your conciousness floating around.

 

[Akhenaten]

Something I just found while reading the article on out-of-body experiences on the Skeptics dictionary immediately reminded me of something I mentioned in this and post and the "two guardian angels" thing I mentioned on this page.

Not to put too fine a point on it, mate, but it seems that everything you read reminds you of something else.

It's like you can't see the forest for the Swedenborgs.

At the bottom of the Out-of-body-experience, he said this.

For example, one of my students has been having OBEs since she was seven. She's now 19 and says she has six or more OBEs a year. They occur only at night when she is in bed and they are all spontaneous. Even though she was, and remains, frightened by these experiences (because she fears she is dying and will not return to her body), she told me she used to think everybody had them. She's been to heaven and has seen Jesus and her guardian angels (she says we all have two). They were very large and dressed in white, though Jesus wore a purple sash.

Cool story. bro.

Well, there is the purple and the two guardian angels thing. Of course this link implies that the purple sash was used in artistic portrayals of Jesus, so the purple thing might be answered. I still wonder about the two angels thing people seem to agree on.

Since we're doing generalisations today, allow me to point out that people don't seem to agree on any such thing, apart from a few fruitcakes.

 

[Zanders]

Not to put too fine a point on it, mate, but it seems that everything you read reminds you of something else.

It's like you can't see the forest for the Swedenborgs.





Cool story. bro.





Since we're doing generalisations today, allow me to point out that people don't seem to agree on any such thing, apart from a few fruitcakes.

(It took so long to reply because I was taking a break)

You my be right, but when I looked at sites like Near-death.com and certain others it sure looked like there were a lot of recurring patterns and themes in these experiences and visions.

 

[George 152]

If I had some ham, I'd make a ham sandwich, if only I had some bread.

Can someone please help me find a logical explanation for why I don't seem to be able to make a ham sandwich?

One more thing. If I had some ham then I think I'd be able to do it. Or some bread.

I know it's probably impossible, but still . . .

This link shows some ham sandwiches.

It really bothers me sometimes that I can't make a ham sandwich, but I'll bet if I did have some ham I could manage it. If I had some bread.


ad infinitum

Get a scam going and then you'll have the dough for your bread.
As for the ham, any small town theatrical group should have hams in abundance

 

[dafydd]

Many people have claimed to have had positive results after discovering the "truths" and applying them to their lives. Of course, such claims really have little value. The (obnoxious) review I posted earlier said "Bring your skepticism, the more the better", basically making a statement similar to the "chaos magic" thread saying to try it and see for yourself.

Most spiritualists and channelers seem to claim that there are spirits living in different "planes" on other planets. Swedenborg seems to have been the first to hint at this, but it was never elaborated on until later writers. I wonder if they read his works or it just came about by coincidence, but Blavatsky and others talked about communicating with such beings from other planets as well. Eventually the concept developed that the beings lived in a different plane that made life possible there, or that it was an "etheric plane" or whatever.

Please do not bring that arch charlatan Blavatsky into it. The only beings that she comnunicated with were the mugs that she conned money out of. She got the idea for her fantasy world from Edward Bulwer Lytton's work of fiction,Zanoni. It was her favourite reading when she was a teenager. The Secret Doctrine is one of the funniest books ever written,I have a copy and I dip into it now and again for amusement.

 

[dafydd]

(It took so long to reply because I was taking a break)

You my be right, but when I looked at sites like Near-death.com and certain others it sure looked like there were a lot of recurring patterns and themes in these experiences and visions.

That's because we all have the same neurotransmitters in our brains.