General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[Mycroft]

how can you split a hair that thin?

That's not thin at all. Governments don't normally rule on the veracity of historical events, so any given government not "recognizing" something has no particular significance at all.

The whole issue of Israel "recognizing" the Armenian Genocide is a political ploy. The issue is raised to make Israel look bad either way. If Israel fails to recognize it, bigots get to claim that the Jewish state only cares about Jewish genocides. If Israel does recognize it then a wedge is driven between Israel and its only Muslim ally, Turkey.

But make no mistake; the denial here is done by Turkey and nobody else.

 

[mortimer]

israel, turkey and the united states, for three.

Evidence? Feel free to provide an official statement from these three countries that state that the Armenian Genocide never happened.

 

[mortimer]

the Israeli Knesset refuses to officially recognize the Armenian Genocide.

Which is quite different than the Knesset officially stating that it didn't happen.

but for some reason, the nations of the world must recognize the Holocaust or they shall pay a heavy price for their clear bigotry.

Evidence? What is this heavy price?

 

[Thunder]

The whole issue of Israel "recognizing" the Armenian Genocide is a political ploy.

well if that's the case, and Israel ss **** ed if they do and **** ed if they don't, than shouldn't they err on the side of justice and acknowledging a mass-genocide?

 

[Thunder]

Which is quite different than the Knesset officially stating that it didn't happen.

Israel refuses to officially acknowledge & recognize the Armenian Genocide.

Israel refuses to recognize the right of a Palestinan State to exist in the West Bank.

looks like Israel has no right to preach to the Palestinians or anyone else regarding the so-called obligation to acknowledge the Holocaust or recognize Israel's right to exist, let alone as a Jewish State.

 

[Mycroft]

Evidence? What is this heavy price?

I'd also be curious to learn if any governments have made formal proclamations affirming the Holocaust, or if any pressure had been place on any government that hadn't done so. I don't recall the issue ever being raised.

I'd also like to point out the apparent double standard here. On one hand Israel is awful for being a "Jewish State". The mantra goes that Israel should be a state for all its citizens and any recognition of the Jewishness of the majority of its citizens is wrong, as is any favoritism of Jews in immigration, and any laws passed or public projects that recognize or show any kind of deference or sensitivity to its Jewish citizens is wrong, wrong, wrong.

On the other hand, the very same people claim that as a Jewish State Israel should show a special sensitivity and recognition to other people who have been victims of genocide. As Jews they're awful for not making a specific effort to do so, even though that same effort isn't commonly done elsewhere in the world.

So again, the common denominator isn't any consistent logic. It's just whatever point of view that allows then to bash Israel at the moment.

 

[Thunder]

I'd also like to point out the apparent double standard here.

I'm sure you'll try.

On one hand Israel is awful for being a "Jewish State". The mantra goes that Israel should be a state for all its citizens and any recognition of the Jewishness of the majority of its citizens is wrong, as is any favoritism of Jews in immigration, and any laws passed or public projects that recognize or show any kind of deference or sensitivity to its Jewish citizens is wrong, wrong, wrong.

I have no problem with Israel calling itself "The Jewish State".

I have no problem with Israel having Jewish holidays as state holidays.

I have no problem with Israel having Hebrew as its official language.

I have no problem with Israel using Jewish symbols as state symbols.

However, I DO have a problem with Israel using religion as the primary factor in immigration.

I DO have a problem with Israel saying that its discriminatory immigration policy that clearly and highly favors Jews, is there to protect Jews from persecution...while at the same time discriminating against Jews who believe in Jesus and Jews who have converted under the "wrong" Orthodox Rabbi or Synagogue....even though such Jews would have surely faced persecution and death under the Nazis.

I DO have a problem with Israel writing laws that allow folks to reclaim property in the West Bank that was taken between 1948-1967, but NOT allowing folks to reclaim similarly confiscated property in Israel proper...which clearly discriminates against Arabs.

On the other hand, the very same people claim that as a Jewish State Israel should show a special sensitivity and recognition to other people who have been victims of genocide.

its called "being consistent".

But as we can all see, Israel is in fact a state of wild inconsistencies and hypocrisy.

 

[mortimer]

Israel refuses to officially acknowledge & recognize the Armenian Genocide.

Yes, yes. You keep saying this and nobody has disagreed with you. However, it is not the same thing as denying the Armenian Genocide.

looks like Israel has no right to preach to the Palestinians or anyone else regarding the so-called obligation to acknowledge the Holocaust or recognize Israel's right to exist, let alone as a Jewish State.

What obligation? What pressure has been exerted by Israel to make other governments acknowledge the Holocaust? Still waiting for evidence...

 

[boyntonstu]

I'm sure you'll try.



I have no problem with Israel calling itself "The Jewish State".

I have no problem with Israel having Jewish holidays as state holidays.

I have no problem with Israel having Hebrew as its official language.

I have no problem with Israel using Jewish symbols as state symbols.

However, I DO have a problem with Israel using religion as the primary factor in immigration.

I DO have a problem with Israel saying that its discriminatory immigration policy that clearly and highly favors Jews, is there to protect Jews from persecution...while at the same time discriminating against Jews who believe in Jesus and Jews who have converted under the "wrong" Orthodox Rabbi or Synagogue....even though such Jews would have surely faced persecution and death under the Nazis.

I DO have a problem with Israel writing laws that allow folks to reclaim property in the West Bank that was taken between 1948-1967, but NOT allowing folks to reclaim similarly confiscated property in Israel proper...which clearly discriminates against Arabs.



its called "being consistent".

But as we can all see, Israel is in fact a state of wild inconsistencies and hypocrisy.

Easter, Christmas. Are the banks open?


"But as we can all see, Israel is in fact a state of But as we can all see, Israel is in fact a state of wild inconsistencies and hypocrisy." Yep, they sure are.

Israel is unique because no other country has wild inconsistencies and hypocrisies.

Telling a people that lost one in 3 to be sensitive is very insensitive.


I give every Holocaust survivor that I meet a free pass and they get my utmost respect.

BTW (So do their children of survivors who grew up with parents who carried that terrible burden.)

 

[Captain.Sassy]

Easter, Christmas. Are the banks open?

yeah but I think that religion runs a smidgen deeper than that in Israel, no? I mean does the US selectively apply immigration rules to different applicants based on their religion?

 

[Thunder]

Yes, yes. You keep saying this and nobody has disagreed with you. However, it is not the same thing as denying the Armenian Genocide.

splitting hairs.

not acknowledging an event and denying it took place is just slightly different.

 

[Thunder]

Telling a people that lost one in 3 to be sensitive is very insensitive.

how very expected and typical of you to confuse the State of Israel with the entire Jewish people. no my friend, they are not the same thing.

No, my friend. Just because you yourself have suffered doesn't mean you get a free-pass to express bigotry and deny the suffering of others.

I give every Holocaust survivor that I meet a free pass and they get my utmost respect..

a free pass to do what? express bigotry and deny the suffering of others?

wow, how generous of you.

do black people who suffered under Jim Crow, blacks who suffered under Apartheid, Native Americans who suffered in reservations, Japanese-Americans who suffered in internment camps, get the same get-out-of-jail-free card?

or is this amazing gift from you ONLY for Jews?

 

[mortimer]

splitting hairs.

not acknowledging an event and denying it took place is just slightly different.

It is entirely different. Unless you are expecting every government to officially acknowledge every historical event that ever occurred.

I don't see that Israel has ever acknowledged the moon landings. Does that mean that Israel denies that the moon landings happened?

 

[Thunder]

I don't see that Israel has ever acknowledged the moon landings. Does that mean that Israel denies that the moon landings happened?

that's cute.

but I guess silly statements like this is all u got.

 

[mortimer]

that's cute.

but I guess silly statements like this is all u got.

Replace "moon landings" with "Armenian Genocide", and that is precisely your argument. Which is indeed silly.

 

[Thunder]

Replace "moon landings" with "Armenian Genocide", and that is precisely your argument. Which is indeed silly.

here is where Mortimer compares denying the various moon-landings to denying the Armenian Genocide.

 

[IDB87]

here is where Mortimer compares denying the various moon-landings to denying the Armenian Genocide.

Uhmmm, no. Read his post again. Perhaps a third time.

Then once again tomorrow.

 

[mortimer]

here is where Mortimer compares denying the various moon-landings to denying the Armenian Genocide.

Here's where the point flies right over Thunder's head.

 

[Thunder]

Here's where the point flies right over Thunder's head.

oh, you had an actual point?

well then, how about you just tell us what your "point" is.

 

[mortimer]

oh, you had an actual point?

well then, how about you just tell us what your "point" is.

I think everybody already got it but you, so you can cut the "us" out.

Not officially acknowledging that something happened is not the same as denying it happened. Not even close.