Merged Cold Fusion Claims

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"We believe it is possible to explain the process with known laws of nature,” said Hanno Essén, associate professor of theoretical physics and a lecturer at the Swedish Royal Institute of Technology and chairman of the Swedish Skeptics Society."

Essén and Professor Emeritus at Uppsala University Sven Kullander, also chairman of the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences’ Energy Committee, both participated on 29 March as observers at a new trial in Bologna of the so-called ‘energy catalyzer’, which could be based on cold fusion, or LENR, Low Energy Nuclear Reaction.

In a detailed report, they write:

“Any chemical process should be ruled out for producing 25 kWh from whatever is in a 50 cubic centimeter container. The only alternative explanation is that there is some kind of a nuclear process that gives rise to the measured energy production.”

From the "Swedish physicists on the E-cat:
“It’s a nuclear reaction” article on NY Teknik



http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3144827.ece


Wow. What a crappy test.

Absolutely everything they've said is invalidated by the simple fact that they still aren't allowed access to the material used in the interior of the device. They were only able to look at the exterior arrangement, and have simply taken Rossi's word for what's actually inside.

That's simply not good enough.
 
FreeEnergyTruth.blogspot.com ? Steorn ? I know that web site from "the village of the banned". You should consider better source of info than that blog...
 
Well at least Steorn knows the business:
Several attempts to present a functioning Orbo-PM to the public failed. A group of scientists allowed to take a look at the device could not find evidence it was able to generate "energy from nothing"
Source: http://esowatch.com/en/index.php?title=Steorn

I still don't get the business model behind this. Is it: "Let's find investors who are so shamed afterwards that they won't sue us?"
 
I still don't get the business model behind this. Is it: "Let's find investors who are so shamed afterwards that they won't sue us?"



Take a look at how many people there are still passionately defending all the previous failed cold fusion/free energy/LENR schemes, and it's clear they don't even feel shame. They just shrug their shoulders, and move on to the next huckster who makes the exact same claims.

Hell, if you look at Blacklight Power and the hydrino scheme, he's pulled in $60 million over 20 years, which isn't a bad revenue stream for a company that's never actually produced a vendible product, and probably never will.
 
Wow. What a crappy test.

Absolutely everything they've said is invalidated by the simple fact that they still aren't allowed access to the material used in the interior of the device. They were only able to look at the exterior arrangement, and have simply taken Rossi's word for what's actually inside.

That's simply not good enough.

The weakest point is that they measured water flow _before_ the test, but
not continuously during the test. Anybody who ever handled a water-pipe knows that if you bend the pipe, water flow goes to almost zero. That is what is happening in the device - once heating reaches boiling temperature, pipe "chokes" on the bubble formation on the walls.
At this point water flow effectively stops, so obviously temperature will increase, given the constant heating, and yes whatever little water is passing
through "bubble barrier" will turn into vapor. This is a parlor trick that any heating equipment engineer would spot, but scientist far from experimental work might overlook.

Another issue is presence of thick lead insulation (while no radiation is detected). This looks like an excuse to get volume and weight to hide batteries or other energy source (as I explained earlier in this tread, thermally accelerated self-discharge of Nickel- Metal hydride batteries is a very convenient way to add some supplemental heat, and the thermal profile would look exactly like the one they show - additional heating onset happens above 60C and than controlled thermal run-away takes place).

Regards,
Yevgen
 
Take a look at how many people there are still passionately defending all the previous failed cold fusion/free energy/LENR schemes, and it's clear they don't even feel shame. They just shrug their shoulders, and move on to the next huckster who makes the exact same claims.

Hell, if you look at Blacklight Power and the hydrino scheme, he's pulled in $60 million over 20 years, which isn't a bad revenue stream for a company that's never actually produced a vendible product, and probably never will.

Yeah, but "Cold Fusion" is still a great name for a band.

glenn:boxedin:
 
http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3144827.ece


Wow. What a crappy test.

Absolutely everything they've said is invalidated by the simple fact that they still aren't allowed access to the material used in the interior of the device. They were only able to look at the exterior arrangement, and have simply taken Rossi's word for what's actually inside.

That's simply not good enough.
Yeah !!
Of course there is a nuclear plant inside the Rossi's E-Cat reactor, and the nuclear fission of the nuclear plant produces the excess heat observed in the experiments.
:)
 
Horatius - you said: "Wow. What a crappy test.

Absolutely everything they've said is invalidated by the simple fact that they still aren't allowed access to the material used in the interior of the device. They were only able to look at the exterior arrangement, and have simply taken Rossi's word for what's actually inside.

That's simply not good enough."

Well, it seems to be good enough for Hanno Essén, associate professor of theoretical physics and a lecturer at the Swedish Royal Institute of Technology and chairman of the Swedish Skeptics Society.

Everything is NOT invalidated. I find it difficult to conceive of any small hidden battery or power source capable of generating 15 Kw for 18 hours, unless you know of a new type of nuclear battery that I'm not familiar with. Perhaps they hid the Mr Fusion from "Back To The Future" in there.

The explanation that a tiny 15Kw hidden battery is responsible is quite frankly MORE ridiculous than the proposition of cold fusion itself.
 
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As far as I can make out, the 15kW power rating is a red herring. It was never measured at 15kW. It was calculated to be so based on two assumptions:

1. Water flow was constant throughout the experiment. This isn't necessarily so, see post #445 by Yevgen Barsukov.

2. All of the water passing through the device, absorbed enough energy to reach 100oC and turn to steam. This ain't necessarily so either. See points made further up thread, again by Yevgen.

Taken together, these points mean that the actual power output of the device is significantly lower than 15kW. How much lower? No-one knows, as the experiment was done so appallingly badly.
 
Yeah !!
Of course there is a nuclear plant inside the Rossi's E-Cat reactor, and the nuclear fission of the nuclear plant produces the excess heat observed in the experiments.
:)



Or, you know, the much more reasonable explanation provided in the very next post.

But thanks for once again showing that woosters will just blow right past any reasonable explanation offered, as if it doesn't exist.


Horatius - you said: "Wow. What a crappy test.

Absolutely everything they've said is invalidated by the simple fact that they still aren't allowed access to the material used in the interior of the device. They were only able to look at the exterior arrangement, and have simply taken Rossi's word for what's actually inside.

That's simply not good enough."

Well, it seems to be good enough for Hanno Essén, associate professor of theoretical physics and a lecturer at the Swedish Royal Institute of Technology and chairman of the Swedish Skeptics Society.


And the wonderful thing about being able to think for myself is, I don't have to just accept everything I'm told on faith, like you seem to. I'm actually allowed to point out obvious flaws in their "experiment" when I notice them.

If Hanno Essén thinks he's done something valuable with this report, then he's just deluded. Wouldn't be the first time something like that has happened, and it won't be the last.



Everything is NOT invalidated. I find it difficult to conceive of any small hidden battery or power source capable of generating 15 Kw for 18 hours, unless you know of a new type of nuclear battery that I'm not familiar with. Perhaps they hid the Mr Fusion from "Back To The Future" in there.

The explanation that a tiny 15Kw hidden battery is responsible is quite frankly MORE ridiculous than the proposition of cold fusion itself.


...and here's another one. Just keep ignoring this post, you'll feel better in the morning.
 
Horatius - you said: "Wow. What a crappy test.

Absolutely everything they've said is invalidated by the simple fact that they still aren't allowed access to the material used in the interior of the device. They were only able to look at the exterior arrangement, and have simply taken Rossi's word for what's actually inside.

That's simply not good enough."

Well, it seems to be good enough for Hanno Essén, associate professor of theoretical physics and a lecturer at the Swedish Royal Institute of Technology and chairman of the Swedish Skeptics Society.

Everything is NOT invalidated. I find it difficult to conceive of any small hidden battery or power source capable of generating 15 Kw for 18 hours, unless you know of a new type of nuclear battery that I'm not familiar with. Perhaps they hid the Mr Fusion from "Back To The Future" in there.

The explanation that a tiny 15Kw hidden battery is responsible is quite frankly MORE ridiculous than the proposition of cold fusion itself.
Can you provide a reputable source for Esséns supposed endorsement please.
My take on his post here is far less enthusiastic.
 
If this thing works, give me one.

I will build it into a steam engine boiler, and run it 24/7 for a few weeks and dispel all doubts about it's efficacy.

That is the only test worth getting excited over.

I promise I won't open it up and look inside.
 
If this thing works, give me one.

I will build it into a steam engine boiler, and run it 24/7 for a few weeks and dispel all doubts about it's efficacy.

That is the only test worth getting excited over.

I promise I won't open it up and look inside.

nobody will give it to you.
You can buy it in upcoming november, in Greece
 
Calorimetry errors have always been the thing the false hopes of CNF have been based upon. This latest "test" is no exception.
the claim of errors in calorimeters is the smart strategy used by community of quantum physicistsj, so that to descredit cold fusion.

This latest "test" is no exception

Only those ones who do not know what is a calorimeter can believe that a difference between 400W in and 15KW out can be credited to an error in calorimeter
 

Let's see shall we? (quotes not in order)
Put that in your pipe and smoke it, Bob Park!

Mr. Park, are you ready to start apologizing for your many years of claiming cold fusion is simply pseudo-science, voodoo science, and snake oil? You better crawl back into the hole you came out of, because a lot of folks are going to be demanding apologies soon!

(Go ahead and continue faking your, "cold fusion amnesia." We realize you have been avoiding talking about the topic over the past few months!)

Dumbstream Media Still Not Paying Attention
Well, it certainly seems to be a very professional report.

We had free access to the heater electric supply, to the inlet water hose, to the outlet steam valve and water hose, and to the hydrogen gas feed pipe. The total weight of the device was estimated to be around 4 kg.

So, they didn't have free access to the important parts, and don't even know how much it weighed. Given that the most obvious concern with claims like this is hidden batteries or other energy sources, that really is the most fundamental thing to check first - what's actually inside and how much does it weigh compared to how much it should weigh.

The result was that the fresh nickel powder was almost totally pure nickel, but the nickel powder that had been in an E-Cat contained 10% copper and 11% iron

...

copper pipe and the steel reactor vessel

Hmm, 6 hours of heating and water flow in a copper and steel apparatus. Yep, must be fusion, because there's certainly no way copper or iron could have come from anywhere else.

This output was less than the 10 to 15 kW produced by the previous version of the E-Cat, but this is very impressive for a device 1/20th the volume!

In what way is the volume relevant? What matters is the amount of material reacted. Given that their reactants are claimed to be 50g of metal powder and some hydrogen gas, there's no reason a much smaller device shouldn't be able to produce the same output. After all, the entire thing is claimed to be nothing more than a pressurised heater. In fact, this is exactly the result you'd expect to see if it's either a deliberate fake or they're fooling themselves in the way Yevgen has already explained, but exactly what you would not expect to see if their claims are actually correct.

Kullander and Essen also ruled out that the energy could be coming from a chemical source. They stated, "Any chemical process for producing 25 kWh from any fuel in a 50 cm3 container can be ruled out.

Interestingly, here's the part from their report immediately preceding that statement:
For comparison, 3 liters of oil or 0.6 kg of hydrogen
would give 25 kWh through chemical burning.

In other words, that amount of energy could easily be provided by a relatively small and easily hidden chemical reaction. The only way you can rule out a chemical reaction is if you have complete access to the entire device throughout the whole experiment. You could very easily hide a small hydrogen tank, or even just a can of butane, and get that much energy out.

That said, I'm still leaning towards simply bad experimental design and total failure to measure actual energy output as opposed to theoretical output assuming everything remains unchanged from the start. It all just looks too sloppy and unprofessional to be a deliberate fraud.

The next one will be the James Randi Skeptic's Society

No it won't. Even assuming the claims of cold fusions were completely correct, they appear far more interested in getting tests at relatively nearby universities than travelling across the world to engage with random skeptical societies that they probably haven't even heard of. Regardless of what happens next, I guarantee the JREF will not be next.

Edit:
Only those ones who do not know what is a calorimeter can believe that a difference between 400W in and 15KW out can be credited to an error in calorimeter

And only those who don't know what calorimetry is would confuse it with a calorimeter. Just in case there's one of those people around here, calorimetry is simply the field of measuring the heat of reactions. A calorimeter is a specific type of device that can be used to do calorimetry in some situations, but is not necessary for calorimetry to take place. In this particular case, no calorimeter was used. There is no mention of any calorimeter by any of the participants. What was actually measured was simply the temperature of water exiting the device, and the energy involved calculated from that. It's calorimetry, but not a calorimeter.

Edit2:
Gah, while looking at the actual report I just noticed even more problems.
Calibrations. The flow of the inlet water was calibrated in the following way. The time for
filling up 0.5 liters of water in a carafe was measured to be 278 seconds
. Visual checks
showed that the water flow was free from bubbles. Scaled to flow per hour resulted in a flow
of 6.47 kg/hour (Density 1 kg/liter assumed). The water temperature was 18 °C. The specific
heat of water, 4.18 joule/gram/ °C which is equal to 1.16 Wh/kg/ °C is used to calculate the
energy needed to bring 1 kg of water from 18 to 100 °C. The result is 1.16 (100-18)=95
Wh/kg. The heat of vaporization is 630 Wh/kg. Assuming that all water will be vaporized, the
energy required to bring 1 kg water of 18 °C to vapor is 95+630=725 Wh/kg. To heat up the
adjusted water flow of 6.47 kg/hour from 18 °C to vapor will require 725 6.47=4.69 kWh/hour.

Bolding mine. They measured water flow by filling up a small jug once and looking at it. They made a bunch of unsupported assumptions, then extrapolated the answers to a six hour test. That's just plain terrible. Turn the tap a little differently, touch a pipe, assume pure water when it's actually quite hard, any number of things could totally change the results before you even start looking at the device itself.
 
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