General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[The Fool]

And I tire of asking you what you mean when you say things like 'balance of the evidence before him.'

What do you refer to when you say evidence in this context?

and I tire of explaining.

"balance of evidence before him"

He can only base his findings on the evidence he has. For example...He cannot base it on evidence that people chose not to present or chose to present at some time in the future.

 

[Thunder]

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diploma...-chiefs-draft-new-mideast-peace-plan-1.354278

another peace plan developed. but what's the point, when both sides seem to be unwilling to really make peace?

 

[IDB87]

and I tire of explaining.

Haven't explained much of anything.

"balance of evidence before him"

He can only base his findings on the evidence he has. For example...He cannot base it on evidence that people chose not to present or chose to present at some time in the future.

Yeah....I get that, TF.

WHAT evidence was available to him that led him to conclude that Israel targeted civilians as policy? The physical aesthetics of Gaza, or something else?

 

[The Fool]

Nah, you were the one prattling on about legal guilt found in a court of law. I was just pointing out there is moral guilt that can be established as well.

I didn't think I'd have to explain that?

Sorry if I didn't pick that when you used the word guilty you meant it as something called "moral guilt" Maybe if you had said "moral guilt" we would have known that you were not refering to actual guilt. If you invent a new type of guilt called "moral guilt" I think its not unreasonable that you explain it rather than just expressing surprise. Can I assign moral guilt to Nations or is it just goldstone that can do this? What authority is given to him to do this? Is Goldstone a moral Authority?

 

[The Fool]

Haven't explained much of anything.



Yeah....I get that, TF.

WHAT evidence was available to him that led him to conclude that Israel targeted civilians as policy? The physical aesthetics of Gaza, or something else?

I assumed that as you are critical of the report that you had read it, or at least part of it. Do you need to be linked to it?

and please....He did not conclude that Israel Targeted civilians as policy, he concluded that on the basis of the evidence before him a competent court could draw that conclusion. Thats what is meant by the common term that a case to answer has been established.

I think we are going to just keep going around and around in circles unless you can get to grips with that.

 

[a_unique_person]

Haven't explained much of anything.



Yeah....I get that, TF.

WHAT evidence was available to him that led him to conclude that Israel targeted civilians as policy? The physical aesthetics of Gaza, or something else?

Dead civilians targeted by armed forces indicates it could be orders.

He has clarified his statement.

Goldstone says he won't seek nullification of Gaza war report Goldstone makes clear in Associated Press interview that he feels only one correction needs to be made in the war report regarding 'intentionality on the part of Israel.'

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diploma...eek-nullification-of-gaza-war-report-1.354376

 

[The Fool]

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diploma...-chiefs-draft-new-mideast-peace-plan-1.354278

another peace plan developed. but what's the point, when both sides seem to be unwilling to really make peace?

I would suggest "some on both sides seem unwilling" would be more accurate.
I think this initiative is a very good sign as I believe Netanyahu's Likud seem quite happy to drive this debacle to the point where a unilateral declaration of a palestinian state supported by major world powers will happen which would leave Netanyahu looking irrelevant.

I have no time for Netanhyahu....he appears to be stuck on stupid.

 

[The Fool]

Dead civilians targeted by armed forces indicates it could be orders.

He has clarified his statement.



http://www.haaretz.com/news/diploma...eek-nullification-of-gaza-war-report-1.354376

well thats Just Goldstone saying clearly what he means....personally I'm going to wait for his critics in this thread to tell us what he (wink wink) really means.

I'm sure it will turn out he has really retracted the report even if he hasn't.

 

[IDB87]

I assumed that as you are critical of the report that you had read it, or at least part of it. Do you need to be linked to it?

In other words, you're only willing to repeat your script, and won't actually go beyond that?

How about this:

54. The attacks on industrial facilities, food production and water infrastructure investigated by the Mission are part of a broader pattern of destruction, which includes the destruction of the
only cement packaging plant in Gaza (the Atta Abu Jubbah plant), the Abu Eida factories for ready-mix concrete, further chicken farms and the Al Wadia Group’s foods and drinks factories. The facts ascertained by the Mission indicate that there was a deliberate and systematic policy on
the part of the Israeli armed forces to target industrial sites and water installations.

61Taking into account the ability to plan, the means to execute plans with the most developed technology available, and statements by the
Israeli military that almost no errors occurred, the Mission finds that the incidents and patterns of events considered in the report are the result of deliberate planning and policy decisions.

1014. As already reported, more than a third of all egg factories were destroyed by the Israeli armed forces. Other testimonies, for example that of the Mayor of al-Atatra,520 who referred to the destruction of his sister’s chicken farms, indicated that a substantial part of the chicken
farming industry appears to have been deliberately and systematically destroyed.

Perhaps you could show me where he gives the evidence for this policy?

and please....He did not conclude that Israel Targeted civilians as policy, he concluded that on the basis of the evidence before him a competent court could draw that conclusion. Thats what is meant by the common term that a case to answer has been established.

1211. Statements by political and military leaders prior to and during the military operations in Gaza leave little doubt that disproportionate destruction and violence against civilians were part of a deliberate policy

 

[Thunder]

WHAT evidence was available to him that led him to conclude that Israel targeted civilians as policy?

clearly this was due to Goldstone being a raving anti-Semite.

 

[The Fool]

In other words, you're only willing to repeat your script, and won't actually go beyond that?

How about this:



Perhaps you could show me where he gives the evidence for this policy?

good grief...you just quoted it....the pattern of attacks in combination with the fact that at the time the IDF was saying they made no mistakes and the fact that Israeli leaders were making statements that indicated it was a policy decision.... Are you denying that the damage information was correct...maybe all that stuff wasn't destroyed?? Or are you denying that at the time the IDF was making a blanket statement that none of the attacks were mistakes?? Or maybe denying the statements of political and military leaders?

You are also reading the summary....thats where evidence is summarized. The details of the evidence is also publicly available and maybe you are annoyed that I don't repost it here again rather than just refer you to the many threads already on here from the time it was actually happening.

 

[Thunder]

Show me where I had such chutzpah?

now, as I promised yesterday, I shall correct your unfortunate confusion.

I was clearly not accusing YOU of chutzpah. I was accusing Israel of chutzpah.

How you did not understand this, is truly beyond me. It boggles the mind. But what can ya do? Life goes on.

 

[Skeptic]

So your gripe here is lack of consistency? Good one.

That's like first claiming the Jews are dirty money-grubbing capitalists, and also that they are dangerous revolutionary Bolshevists, and, when pointing out this is contradictory, saying, "But both Rostchild and Trostsky were Jews! It's the Jews that are inconsistent, not me!".

 

[Skeptic]

this thread is about the Israel/Palestine conflict and related issues, not the Holocaust.

I'd say the fact the Arab countries hid and supported Nazis is relevant to the conflict. So is the fact that the founder of the Palestinian national movement, Haj Amin el-Husseini, wanted to genocide all the Jews.

If we found out that Obama declared his love of Hitler and his desire to do to all White people what Hitler had done to the Jews, this would be rather relevant to USA politics threads, not just to holocaust history.

The difference between the two cases is that while the American political leader is exceedingly unlikely to ever say or do anything like that, the Palestinian political leader actually said it and did his best to make it come true.

 

[Thunder]

The difference between the two cases is that while the American political leader is exceedingly unlikely to ever say or do anything like that, the Palestinian political leader actually said it and did his best to make it come true.

the Palestinian political leader died how many decades ago?

Vladimir Jabotinsky, the father of right-wing Zionism and honored today by an Israeli medal, wanted to ethnically cleanse Palestine of all Arabs & Muslims, to make way for a Jewish state.

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Famous-Zionist-Quotes/Story640.html

but that doesn't really have anything to do with today's current events...now does it?

but by your logic, Jabotinsky is indeed relevant today.


...and yes, if you REALLY want to go back and compare the various racist and brutal statements made by both Palestinian and Zionist leaders back in the 1930s and 1940s, we can do this. but I don't think you will like what you see.

 

[Virus]

Yeah but the Jews didn't collaborate with the Nazis did they? They didn't take on Hitler's conspiracy theories and disseminate them in textbooks and mass media did they?

Right here, right now. Arabs in Israel have more freedom and rights than they do on any Arab country. Israeli Arabs don't even want to live in a Palestinian state. Now, what happened to all those thriving Jewish communities in Yemen, Iraq, Egypt, Lebanon....

 

[Thunder]

Yeah but the Jews didn't collaborate with the Nazis did they?

I have ZERO doubt, none whatsoever, that if the Nazis offered to turn Palestine into a homeland for the Jews of Europe as part of their "Final Solution", many Zionists would have been happy to assist the Nazis in ridding the land of all Arabs, in pursuit of that goal.

And by the way, yes. Many Jews did indeed work with the Nazis. They were called Kapos and the Judenrat. They helped the Nazis ghettoize the Jews and brutalize/control them in the concentration camps.

 

[Virus]

Your alternate reality aside, who's spreading Hitler's conspiracy theories in textbooks right now? The Arabs are. And they got them through their close collaboration with the Nazis, who inspired all of the corrupt ideologies that flourish in that part of the world.

Who rules Gaza right now? The Nazi-inspired Muslim Brotherhood.

 

[Thunder]

Hamas spreads Nazi CT, the Israelis don't teach their kids about the Nakba and have criminalized memorializing the Nakba in public by organizations.

Its all the same evil.

 

[Thunder]

West Bank settlers willing to go home for $$$.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-editio...-willing-to-evacuate-for-right-price-1.354510

Danny Dayan, the chairman of the Yesha Council of West Bank settlements, told U.S. officials that some settlers would be willing to move to Israel proper in exchange for financial compensation, according to confidential State Department cables obtained by WikiLeaks.

Dayan also told U.S. Embassy officials that he was aware of the Palestinians' attachment to the West Bank. He acknowledged that he was "shamed and embarrassed" by the desecration of Palestinian mosques and the vandalism of Muslim gravestones. Dayan added that settlers were guilty of "morally horrific" things, including attacks on Palestinian property as retribution for Israeli government efforts to rein in settlement construction, also known as the "price tag" policy.


....wow....there are some brain cells amoung the criminal settler movement.