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General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

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Which was to make baseless accusations against Israel and to write a biased report, which he did.

What's the problem now?

I am looking to see if Skeptic supports these attacks made by Dershowitz, as Skeptic says that Goldstone "did do what his critics accuse him of":

Harvard law professor Alan Dershowitz said Goldstone was “an evil, evil man,” “a traitor to the Jewish people,” the U.N.’s “token court Jew” and a “despicable human being.”

...or, if Skeptic will condemn such vile and bigoted attacks against Goldstone.
 
I am looking to see if Skeptic supports these attacks made by Dershowitz, as Skeptic says that Goldstone "did do what his critics accuse him of":

Harvard law professor Alan Dershowitz said Goldstone was “an evil, evil man,” “a traitor to the Jewish people,” the U.N.’s “token court Jew” and a “despicable human being.”

...or, if Skeptic will condemn such vile and bigoted attacks against Goldstone.

Skeptic said:
Goldstone most definitely did do what his critics accused him of -- namely, wrote an unfair and biased report that was used as a weapon to delegitimize Israel.

Skeptic does not have to defend/attack Dershowitz, as that is not what is being discussed in this thread (nor does he speak for Dershowitz). He is free to do as he wishes in regards to the comments made by the Professor, but it is entirely irrelevant ITT.

As it stands, Goldstone wrote a biased report without being aware of the facts, and he did so in order to attack/demonize Israel. What Skeptic said was entirely accurate.
 
Skeptic does not have to defend/attack Dershowitz, as that is not what is being discussed in this thread (nor does he speak for Dershowitz).

Skeptic said this:

What Goldstone deserves is something else: he deserves that those who attacked him, quite correctly, for making false accusations against Israel, will not apologize for saying the truth about him, but will acknowledge that he now changed his mind and that he did the right thing in so doing.

I would like Skeptic to perhaps clarify this, so that we understand if he is really suggesting that those who attacked Goldstone, such as the way Dershowitz did, should not have to apologize to Goldstone for their vile & bigoted attacks against him.

It is my view that regardless of Goldstone's errors or false-conclusions in his report, he in no way deserved the disgusting and anti-Semitic character assassination that he suffered.

I simply wish to know if Skeptic agrees with me.
 
First of all, I have never heard of the "islamo-left", nor do I think they even exist, as Islamic extremists hate Communists and murder them, due to their advocacy of atheism.

Secondly, I have never justified nor defended any of the baseless & bigoted accusations made against Israel by Islamic extremists nor Communists, therefore I have nothing to apologize for.

All I would like to know is, considering is earlier mentioned defense of many of the attacks against Goldstone, what Skeptic's reaction is to Dershowitz's vile and bigoted attack against Goldstone, and whether he believes that Dershowitz should apologize to Goldstone for such hateful and anti-Semitic remarks...in light of Goldstone's retractions.

Its a very civil and honest question.
 
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To repeat what I said:

Goldstone most definitely did do what his critics accused him of -- namely, wrote an unfair and biased report that was used as a weapon to delegitimize Israel

Which is precisely what he did. For all I know someone might also have accused him of eating babies, in which case that person should apologize, but that's hardly the main point made against him.
 
I agree. I think the main point is that we were right and the Israel bashers were wrong. They were wrong because a biased, OIC-funded report was too good for the haters to resist.

Still waiting on that apology for using the report to spread lies. I see your diversion has bought you some time, but we havn't forgotten.
 
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Why why why why, The Fool, would Goldstone make accusations without any evidence?

Why didn't he have that information? Maybe because it was being collected by the IDF?

This is kind of embarrassing, TF, that you must cling to something so desperately when it actually turns out to work against you.

why why why IDB87 do you keep chanting accusations without evidence?

What accusations did goldstone make without evidence?? what?

he found on the evidence before him that both Hamas and Israel had a case to answer...this was, and still is..... true.

why didn't he have all the information? because Israel refused to co-operate.

But I suspect these plain simple facts don't concern you as you happily ride along in the wave of slander.
 
It's also disgusting for Goldstone to, without any shred of proof, claim that the IDF deliberately targeted civilians and the economic infrastructure of Gaza.

Both should apologize, but I think the former has much more to apologize for.
just wanted to point out basic your lack of understanding here.

Goldstone did not do anything "without a shred of proof" he used the evidence available to him. Could you please stop chanting that tired old lie.

Goldsytone did not claim that the IDF did anything. His findings were that Hamas and Israel both had a case to answer...ie that on the evidence before him he believed that a competent court could determine guilt.

I know thats a little more complex than a black or white slogan chant but please make an effort to understand the difference.

you guys slagging goldstone on these childish misunderstandings are just looking shrill and silly.
 
Goldstone did not do anything "without a shred of proof"

Sure he did - otherwise there would be nothing to retract.

he used the evidence available to him.

What evidence are you referring to?

Goldstone referred to Cast Lead as a deliberate plan to destroy the infrastructure of Gaza and that this equated to Collective Punishment. That was his central critique of Cast Lead - that it wasn't about Hamas, but about punishing Palestinians.
 
why why why IDB87 do you keep chanting accusations without evidence?

What accusations did goldstone make without evidence?? what?

The accusation was that Cast Lead was an operation that purposefully targeted the infrastructure of Gaza to the point where it was 'Collective Punishment'.

he found on the evidence before him that both Hamas and Israel had a case to answer...this was, and still is..... true.

For example Goldstone thought the deliberate targeting of a School required investigation. Turns out this claim had no substance.

why didn't he have all the information? because Israel refused to co-operate.

Perhaps he made his baseless claims first, then demanded the IDF account for them? But Israel played ball and turns out Goldstone was blowing smoke.

But I suspect these plain simple facts don't concern you as you happily ride along in the wave of slander.

And you are happy to attack anyone/everyone when your position falls out from beneath you. We are talking about Goldstone, not me.
 
Originally Posted by Virus
Still waiting on that apology for using the report to spread lies. I see your diversion has bought you some time, but we havn't forgotten.

if I had a nickle for every event in the Israel/Palestine conflict that required an apology, I'd be a rich man.
 
The accusation was that Cast Lead was an operation that purposefully targeted the infrastructure of Gaza to the point where it was 'Collective Punishment'.
The findings were that, on the basis of the evidence before him, Israel had a case to answer. Not that it was proven. That is the job of a court, Goldstone's commission was not a court it could not and did not decide guilt. This has been explained many many times.

Israel initially refused to co-operate and was not going to answer the case. Israel changed its mind. When Israel finally agreed to and conducted acceptable investigations it was found to have answered the case. Goldstone pointed out that if Israel had done this in the first place and not stonewalled it was likely that he would not have concluded they had a case to answer....this now is being misrepresented as goldstone "retracting" his findings which is bollocks.


For example Goldstone thought the deliberate targeting of a School required investigation. Turns out this claim had no substance.
thats correct, thats what he was asked to do....thats what he did. If he had the results of the Israeli inquiry into the targeting of the school before him in the first place he has said it would be likely he would not have concluded it needed to go to a court to determine. What is your problem with that? Many people here seem to be annoyed that goldstone did not take into account information that was not available to him. When the IDF says to stop asking questions they did nothing wrong...Israel apologists may line up to accept it on face value but a competent Jurist surely can't. When Israel finally agreeed to acceptable more open investigations.....blow me down, goldstone announced that if he had that info earlier he would probably have mad a different finding. Amazing isn't it.


Perhaps he made his baseless claims first, then demanded the IDF account for them? But Israel played ball and turns out Goldstone was blowing smoke.
why do you constantly refer to "baseless" claims. They were not baseless. They were based on all the information he had.....which was all the information less any input from Israel as they were refusing to co-operate.

when Israel eventually did "play ball" a better conclusion was possible. If they had "played ball" in the first place a better conclusion may have been reached in the first place. Is it Goldstones fault that Israel would not co-operate?


And you are happy to attack anyone/everyone when your position falls out from beneath you. We are talking about Goldstone, not me.
My position has not fallen out from under me. My position has been misrepresented so has a lot of stuff to do with the goldstone commission.

and we are talking about you....it is not goldstone who is constantly misrepresenting his own findings or failing to understand the point of his enquiries.
 
its hard to imagine Goldstone having to apologize for being wrong about Israel when Israel refused to cooperate with his investigation.

maybe if they didn't feel they were above investigating in the first place, things may have gone a little differently over the last few years.

maybe...if Israel saw that cooperating with investigations and didn't view the international community and its laws with utter contempt, they would have a slightly better reputation.
 
Rethinking the End Game

"The original motivation to create separate nations for Jews and Arabs was a sound one, given the theological and historic animosity of Arabs toward the Jews. And, in fact, new Arab nations were created: TransJordan, Lebanon, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Yemen were created on the desiccated husk of the dismantled Ottoman Empire (dismantled for having chosen the losing side during World War I; losing a war is invariably the source of nation mutation and creation throughout human history). In order to appease Arab Jew-hatred, the plan then became to subdivide again the remaining land into a Jewish State and yet another Arab State. The Jewish State, Israel, was embraced and (re)born, but the Arabs could not bear a Jewish entity within their midst. They attacked the Jewish State, rejected the proffered land, and that territory -- the Jordan River's West Bank -- has remained little more than a battlefield ever since. "

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Health for the Arabs located in the disputed territories improved dramatically during that time: mortality rates in the "West Bank" and Gaza fell by more than two-thirds, and life expectancy rose from 48 years to 72, while infant mortality rates fell from 60 per 1,000 live births to 15 per 1000. Their quality of living improved: in 1967 only 20% had electricity around the clock and only 16% had running water, but by 1986 those rates soared to 92.8% and 85%, respectively.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/04/rethinking_the_end_game.html


This article will make you think.
 
there will be no peace for Israel until its lives side-by-side with an independent Palestinian State in most if not all of the West Bank and the Arab areas of East Jerusalem.
 
there will be no peace for Israel until its lives side-by-side with an independent Palestinian State in most if not all of the West Bank and the Arab areas of East Jerusalem.

Is this a threat?

Of course, if Israel were to live side-by-side with a Palestinian State would this guarantee "peace for Israel"?
 
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