Bigfoot, an evolutionary argument for it's non-existence.

OldBlueMoon seems to be combining two so-called experts into one mythical person.

We have a foot structure expert who can locate bigfoot foot bones through its print (cripplefoot - Krantz?), and we have a fingerprint analyst (Chilcutt).
 
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I mean doesn't the fossil record pretty much show a complete lack of giant bipedal hominids of these proportions?

What proportions? 10' tall and 1000 lbs? If that's the case, I'm with you. 7' tall and 300 lbs? That's not an evolutionary obstacle at all.

Footers have two outs here: One is Gigantopithecus, an ape that some think may have been bipedal and was significantly larger than modern gorillas. If bigfoot is an ape, Giganto is the hypothetical ancestor. If, however, bigfoot is really just a big member of our own genus, say Homo erectus, then the concern is that we may have already described bigfoot with fossils, we just haven't recognized the connection. Picture a reconstruction of H. erectus a couple inches taller and covered with hair. Now imagine encountering such a creature out in the wilds. There's your bigfoot.
 
The niche makes no sense....Competing with bears and man isn't a reasonable task.

Ah, but population density is the great leveler. Everything we think we know about niche partitioning goes out the window if population density is too low to actually induce competition.
 
Immense strength, speed, and intelligence on par with our own isn't enough for you?
On a par? I believe the footers would say they are bigger, stronger, faster and smarter than humans.

A lack of obvious weaponry doesn't keep chimps from being highly effective predators.
I can think of two very effective weapons in a chimp.


They rely on stealth and cooperation to trap their quarry, but the killing blows seem to be come simply from pounding fists, bites, and arm strength capable of dismemberment.
Right, a 200 lb animal, on all fours, with wicked speed and ability to climb trees, due in part, to it's articulating thumbs on it's feet, marching with purpose on a raid march, with multiple accomplices, attacking a rival troop, vs. A 450 lb, 9 foot tall, Biped, with a foot shaped like this;
images


(devil's advocate again) Trust me, hard core 'footers would snicker at such elementary objections as "what do they eat?" or "how do they get their food?" They've seen them all before, and they have the advantage of inventing any biological capability for their bigfoot that has any kind of precedent in the natural world.
I am asking for a large (8'-12', 300 - 600lbs) bipedal mammal, with a human like foot, got one?

The Shrike said:
Shaquille O'Neal is my model for the proportions of a hypothetical, adult, male bigfoot.

I can't let you use that example.

October 8, 1994
http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/chicago...=SHAQ'S+SPRAIN+A+STRAIN+ON+MAGIC&pqatl=google
O'Neal banged his right foot against backup center Keith Tower's ankle as he made a move during a five-on-five drill. X-rays of the injury were negative, though, and a doctor prescribed a week of rest and an anti-inflammatory medication.

January 7, 1996
http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we...page=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM
O'Neal (27.2 points per game), who suited up but did not play, is nursing a strained left quadriceps muscle;

December 17, 1997
http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we...page=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM

Shaq's resting the strained abdominal muscles that have sidelined him for most of the season. Tonight, he will miss his 16th game.
February 12, 1997
The injury bug bites O'Neal again. He hyperextends his left knee, fracturing a bone and partially tearing a ligament. The Lakers win only 16 of the 28 games he misses.

February 18, 2003
http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes...th+Yao+and+eighth-place+Rockets.&pqatl=google
His knee is "sore," is as technical as the Lakers have gotten with O'Neal's injury, though he said his medial collateral ligament was swollen. The club would not confirm that and, indeed, made it clear that no tests had been ordered. O'Neal also has some concerns with his surgically repaired toe and, in a new development, his shoulder, but those are less bothersome.

November 2, 2004
http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we...page=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM
Shaquille O'Neal remains bothered by a strained left hamstring, yet the 11-time All-Star center hopes to play Wednesday when Miami opens its season at New Jersey. O'Neal missed most of Miami's practice yesterday, sparking concerns that the injury is worse than feared.

November 4, 2005
http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we...page=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM
The biggest guy in the arena went down on opening night. Heat center Shaquille O'Neal hobbled off the AmericanAirlines Arena court Thursday night with 6:35 remaining in the fourth quarter of the Heat's 105-102 loss to the Indiana Pacers. O'Neal sprained his right ankle when he landed on the foot of Indiana's Ron Artest



November 8, 2006
http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we...page=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM
O'Neal has tried to play through various foot ailments for years, which simply can't get easier as he gets older and heavier.

I'll stop there, this guy is 39 years old, and without proper medical help, he would probably not be walking. He plays basketball on a level court, 80 some games/year, he takes anti-inflammatory shots, and pain killers just to keep going. http://news.bostonherald.com/sports/basketball/celtics/view/2011_0313no_urgency_for_shaq/
Shaq has already taken several doses of anti-inflammatory drugs this year to treat his various ailments and make himself available. He most recently offered to take a shot of pain killer for the trouble with his sore Achilles tendon.

A large predatory mammal on two feet, on wilderness terrain, having to go full on, to catch it's food, is going to get injured, it is not going to have a positive impact on it's ability to reproduce.

Shaq may be the size of a Bigfoot, but there is no way a guy that size survives going all out without medical attention, and the best playing conditions possible.
 
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Size is actually a bigger problem than it sounds, because it also needs lots of food.

In the comparison to humans, for example, let's not forget that since the Neolithic or so, average human size has been more like 5'4". (Estimated average height in ancient Rome is actually more like 5'3", for example.) Even well fed and rich humans like Caesar, passed for tall at an estimated 5'7". Only in very recent times, when diet in the western world improved dramatically, we started to get taller than that. And in places you get pygmies that are less than 4'11" (the upper limit by definition to be called pygmy.)

Earlier we a race of humans that were taller, but also thinner. It was obviously out-competed by us short and stocky guys. And even that meant, basically, same height as a western human nowadays, just more pencil-thin. I.e., on the whole, they still weighed about as much as the shorter guys that replaced them.

A hominid with human-like bipedal locomotion, but twice the weight, and without the benefits of being basically like us a shorter species that is going through an anomaly because of being technologically advanced, is not clear at all how viable that is. If nothing else, because we have no comparable specimens on the record.

Also, because for hunting without ranged weapons you need some speed and endurance. At the same body shape, the weight increases with the cube of the size, but the muscle force only with the muscle's cross-section, which is to say, with the square of the same. A smaller species will out-run, or in endurance hunting out-walk, a scaled up version of the same.

To even maintain the same speed, you need to put more and more percentage of the body mass into the leg muscles. And past a point it gets kinda ridiculous. As in a stick figure guy on some huge legs.

Even for dinosaurs, essentially that's how it worked for them too. You'd likely be able to outrun a T Rex comfortably, and that's without being a great track athlete. Plus, those lived in times of higher oxygen concentration. But, anyway, any large predator you choose from that age, they'd still be slower than you expect in a predator nowadays. Very large predators could exist only because they had large animals as prey, who'd also run slowly.

So it's not clear at all what would a Bigfoot eat anyway. It would certainly be at a disadvantage at chasing a deer even compared to a human. So what does it catch? Bears?
 
Shaq may be the size of a Bigfoot, but there is no way a guy that size survives going all out without medical attention, and the best playing conditions possible.


Shaq is an outlier for Homo sapiens - he is atypical and will have special problems because of it. Therefore, he is a strawman in the evolutionary argument you started in the OP.
 
What proportions? 10' tall and 1000 lbs? If that's the case, I'm with you. 7' tall and 300 lbs? That's not an evolutionary obstacle at all.

Footers have two outs here: One is Gigantopithecus, an ape that some think may have been bipedal and was significantly larger than modern gorillas. If bigfoot is an ape, Giganto is the hypothetical ancestor. If, however, bigfoot is really just a big member of our own genus, say Homo erectus, then the concern is that we may have already described bigfoot with fossils, we just haven't recognized the connection. Picture a reconstruction of H. erectus a couple inches taller and covered with hair. Now imagine encountering such a creature out in the wilds. There's your bigfoot.

7' tall is an obstacle for a biped.
Most 7' tall people have problems with their lower limbs, the few genetic freaks that are able to perform athletically for 10-15 years, are using the greatest medical technology available to keep them going. Did you see HHH's quadricep tear?

Gigantopithecus was a knuckle walker, even Bill Munns says that they don't know if he is a Biped.
http://meta-religion.com/Paranormale/Cryptozoology/hominids/gigantopithecus_blacki.htm

An erectus a couple inches taller, would be about 5'11" tall, and 180.
We are talking about a creature that is 7-13' tall by differing accounts. John Cartwright's sighting was of a creature 9' tall and 6' wide. An erectus 14" taller? I would buy that at least as matching the sizes in the reports.
 
Shaq is an outlier for Homo sapiens - he is atypical and will have special problems because of it. Therefore, he is a strawman in the evolutionary argument you started in the OP.

I was simply countering The Shrike's use of Shaq as his typical example of a Bigfoot.

The Shrike said:
Shaquille O'Neal is my model for the proportions of a hypothetical, adult, male bigfoot.
 
I was simply countering The Shrike's use of Shaq as his typical example of a Bigfoot.


But you used it in a strawman fashion. Shrike used Shaq only as an example of size and proportion. If Bigfoot evolved to be 7-8' tall it would have a physiology to support that size and the activities of survival. Bigfoot would not sustain the same injuries as Shaq on the basketball court.
 
But you used it in a strawman fashion. Shrike used Shaq only as an example of size and proportion. If Bigfoot evolved to be 7-8' tall it would have a physiology to support that size and the activities of survival. Bigfoot would not sustain the same injuries as Shaq on the basketball court.

Name a bipedal mammal, 7-8' tall, that doesn't have joint issues. That is the point.

(and don't say 'Bigfoot')
 
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. . . And Shaq's injuries in recent seasons are irrelevant from an evolutionary perspective. He's got what, 5 kids? Boom, he's successful.

It doesn't matter if the bodies of really large people start to break down rapidly in their 40s if they sired offspring when in their 20s.
 
. . . And Shaq's injuries in recent seasons are irrelevant from an evolutionary perspective. He's got what, 5 kids? Boom, he's successful.

It doesn't matter if the bodies of really large people start to break down rapidly in their 40s if they sired offspring when in their 20s.

Is that directly related to his height? or the fact that he makes $120million playing basketball?

I don't think height is the reason he's had five kids.

If he was not a basketball player, and 7'0 350lbs, would he be as successful at reproduction?
 
Name a bipedal mammal, 7-8' tall, that doesn't have joint issues. That is the point.

(and don't say 'Bigfoot')


Sasquatch.

But really, I can't name any bipedal mammal that is 7-8' tall.

If strong joints and bones were necessary for Bigfoot survival and reproduction then evolution would provide those. That is how natural selection works.

Imagine if Shaq's doctor was a Bigfooter. "Look man, if you had Bigfoot feet and tendons instead of human you wouldn't have these problems. Their bodies evolved for the constant abuses of rugged terrain."
 
Sasquatch.

But really, I can't name any bipedal mammal that is 7-8' tall.

If strong joints and bones were necessary for Bigfoot survival and reproduction then evolution would provide those. That is how natural selection works.

Imagine if Shaq's doctor was a Bigfooter. "Look man, if you had Bigfoot feet and tendons instead of human you wouldn't have these problems. Their bodies evolved for the constant abuses of rugged terrain."

A footer is going to say that yes, but, I am trying to confront this from an evolutionary viewpoint. Nature has not selected-for a giant bipedal mammal. There is not one example of this. Nature has selected for GIANT quadrupedal mammals, and giant knucklewalking mammals, but it has mysteriously neglected to select-for giant bipedal mammals, except in the case of a creature that we can not find. (except in legends and lore.)
 
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I don't think height is the reason he's had five kids.

No, I wasn't making the case that he has children because of his stature, but rather in spite of it.

You were making the case that great stature in a biped would be selectively advantageous, because tall humans so often have joint problems. But those issues don't usually become really problematic until later in life, long after the individual has had an opportunity to reproduce. If you're talking about "wild" hominids, any problem that shows up after you're 40 is irrelevant. You're already old enough at that point to have grandchildren, if you're lucky to live that long at all.

Parcher explained that selection for traits that support larger body size would also be assumed in a population of larger individuals. I think that's right too. I'd assume that an abnormally tall guy from the Phillipines at 7' tall would have some serious issues - more so than a 7' Masai who would be not that much taller than average in his population.
 
A footer is going to say that yes, but, I am trying to confront this from an evolutionary viewpoint. Nature has not selected-for a giant bipedal mammal. There is not one example of this. Nature has selected for GIANT quadrupedal mammals, and giant knucklewalking mammals, but it has mysteriously neglected to select-for giant bipedal mammals, except in the case of a creature that we can not find. (except in legends and lore.)


You are making an argument that is logically weak. You are saying that anything that could happen would have already happened. All possible animals will already exist as real animals with no potential for change over time.

If you look at prehistory you will see a time when therapod dinosaurs (bipeds) exist in variety but none are gigantic like Tyrannosaurus or Spinosaurus. If you Drew, existed at that time, you would say that T. rex can't exist because it isn't already on the scene. You would be right about it not existing at that time, but your argument goes further to say that nature simply can't make one. That there is something inherent about "therapods or therapodism" that prevents gigantic size.

Somebody could even argue that Bigfoot's size is sexually selected.
 
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But you used it in a strawman fashion. Shrike used Shaq only as an example of size and proportion. If Bigfoot evolved to be 7-8' tall it would have a physiology to support that size and the activities of survival. Bigfoot would not sustain the same injuries as Shaq on the basketball court.

No matter how it evolved, it would still not be exempt from basic biology. Whether you're talking Shaq or a genuine bigfoot or T Rex, the square vs cube rule still holds. You could still outrun a T Rex no matter how it evolved, unless you postulate some miracle muscles that work unlike anything else and were somehow replaced with more inferior muscles in the bird and mammal descendants of those lizards by evolution.

Ditto for bigfoot. Short of some miracle biology, they'll need bigger bones, much thicker ligaments just to not tear up, and disproportionately bigger percentage of their body mass in the leg muscles just to keep up with a human.

And humans survived and were good at hunting because they used tools too. You can't pummel a deer to death with your fists. Homo Sapiens and this particular body configuration comes at the end of a long evolution lines that involved increasingly more tool use. And in fact, the way to us includes already two sentient hominids before us, the H Ergaster and H Heidelbergensis. That's just out of our direct ancestors, not counting side branches like the Neanderthals. And Ergaster comes from the already tool-using H Habilis. And I don't just mean use a branch to dig for ants, but flaked stone tools.

We could afford to have more and more this particular body configuration, because we're at the end of a long evolution line which favoured having the hands free for tool use, rather than for locomotion either way. We don't have the feet of someone who needs to do much locomotion through trees, nor the arms of someone who could use the extra speed on ground. We're the product of a very specific chain of circumstances, not the least being that for the last couple million years we used tools instead of either speed or strength.

The same goes for natural weapons. Chimps can tear prey apart with those arms, because they're arms selected for use for locomotion in trees. But then they also have the feet for that. Bigfoot doesn't.

So, really, how would bigfoot hunt? Why would their selection have favoured a configuration which isn't particularly suited for either trees or ground level, yet doesn't have the tools and stuff to need those arms free for? If nature keeps them having arms strong enough to tear prey apart without tools or pummel a deer to death, then they're arms suited for living in trees. And for a species that lives in the woods, then why doesn't selection also produce some feet suitable for that? Or if it chases the prey on foot, and, again, barring finding a bunch of Bigfoot weapons and tools, then why doesn't it get the kind of front limbs that would be an advantage for that?

And generally, we're talking a configuration that would be... weird anyway. It would need to maintain some very strong upper arms just for hunting that way, which adds total weight, while _also_ having some disproportionately thick legs so it can chase prey on just two legs at that size, and a foot configuration that doesn't help with speed either. And then it doesn't get something like claws on those big feet so it can actually use that leg strength for a kill. (Like, for example, raptors did.) It's not clear at all why something would evolve such a WTF configuration instead of a quadruped or arboreal form that beats it hands down.
 
I just don't think this argument has good traction as any kind of silver bullet. Meldrum could tear it apart and eat it for breakfast. Any evolutionist or anthropologist who chose to play the role of "Bigfoot Advocate" (a version of Devil's Advocate) could do the same.

IMO, the big problem is that we have no form of specimen after over 400 years. I think it's a fatal problem for Bigfootery. It is what gives confidence to the position that Bigfoot does not exist.

All of the hundreds or thousands of found "Bigfoot tracks" and castings actually work against Bigfootery instead of favoring it. It means that Bigfoot walks where we walk. It means that we consistently enter into its environment or domain. You cannot have that kind of access to a creature's realm and not end up with specimens after so many centuries. What kind of opportunities present themselves for a person to shoot a Bigfoot? Just watch the PGF to understand. If that kind of situation could ever happen we would already have a dead Bigfoot by now.
 

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