The thread began not as a discussion of whether there is proof of anything metaphysical. The thread began seeking input as to Monroe Institute perceptions/experiences. Those of us who are actively seeking first hand experiences and/or are still open to the possibility that we are more than physical beings are sharing our thoughts with one another. I suggest that those who have concluded there is nothing more than this physical existence have made their point and should consider moving on. Perhaps you have nothing more to offer to this thread.
Monroe Institute
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Mister Earl
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Why do you believe people can transmit thoughts to each other? That'd be the easiest method of all of winning Randi's million. Yet nobody can manage it.
That’s what I am working towards, like jfish and yourself, I cannot spontaneously bring on an OBE/Lucid Dream at will but I am trying to. I have been trying a bit too hard recently I think.
Had a dream the other night that I was trying to have a spontaneous OBE (not a lucid dream, I wasn’t aware I was dreaming), then I actually managed it I was hovering above my body and the shock of it drove me to wake up! So obviously the whole thing happened within a dream.
But – I am enjoying the experimentation and I have my notebook by my bed in case anything does happen that I think of that is worthy of writing down, so far I haven’t experienced anything that could be considered evidence. Like I said, if I can get to a stage where I can bring this on regularly I will try and experiment more in an attempt to prove to myself that there is, or isn’t, anything more to this than brain function.
Out of curiousity, what kind of evidence did you gather that led you to believe they were brain based?
Either way I am fascinated by dreaming and different states of consciousness so interested in hearing both sides of the coin. Especially from someone who has become sceptical about it through experience and then making that deduction.
Cheers.
You could introduce objective elements, probably by enlisting outside help. I think you or jfish have already discussed the possibilities of seeing things when in OBE that you could not possibly know when IBE. You could arrange to set up objects that will only be visible when hovering under the ceiling, and that you have no possibility of knowing in advance, like a computer picture. If physical objects like walls are no hindrance for OBE, you could have arranged to have an object locked up in a cupboard that you have no access to.
Exactly. As long as you use your first-hand experience to gain information of the nature of the phenomenon, there is no problem. When you use it to convince yourself and others that the OBEs are real, you have a problem.
If OBEs are for real, it will be interesting how the "soul" sees anything. After all, we know that light consists of photons, and we can measure if just a single photon is missing from a light beam, so just how is the soul "seeing" anything? If the soul is not using light, it could be able to "see" stuff that is not visible with light, and colours (which are properties of light) would make no sense. The same goes for sounds that are movements of air, and how would a soul sense movement of air without blocking for the movement?
These are aspects you should be aware of if you consider OBEs to be real.
Had an obe once during a very intense panic attack; it was a product of very heightened senses and the mind. I didn't much care for it.
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Marcus
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I'm not an OBE believer but I've enjoyed lucid dreaming occasionaly for decades, it's contained completely within the brain and is lots of fun. The method I use to induce the state is one I learned a long time ago.
First, establish a trigger. It's something that will remind you that you are dreaming. In my case it's looking at my hands, In other words, I remind myself over and over while awake to look at my hands while dreaming.
Second, it is critical that you be thinking about the desired dream just before falling asleep.
So it goes like this: in the minutes before falling asleep, I think about, say, a flying dream, and remind myself to look at my hands. In the dream, I will remember my suggestion to look at my hands, and in that moment, I will remember that I'm dreaming. The trick is to not think about it too hard, or you will wake up. From that moment on you have control, if you want to fly to Brazil, say, no problem.
I have also had lucid dreams, particularly when I was younger, but I cannot say that I was in control just because I knew I was dreaming. It often happened that wished the dream would stop because what happened was too silly, but I was just swept along and had to be satisfied that at least none of it was real. On rare occasions I was able to break off the dream at will, and even continuing the dream after having ensured that there was enough time before I had to get up.
I was discussing OBEs and lucid dreams with a friend who says she regularly has both. She said she perceives a difference between the two states. Sometimes she is in a lucid dream and then makes a conscious effort to convert it to an OBE.
Marcus, your comment about the importance of what you are thinking when you drift off to sleep is very much aligned with what is in Bill Buhlman's book on OBEs. One of the recommendations is to repeat to yourself as you are falling asleep "Now I'm out of body." I've tried that but the most I've been able to accomplish is getting into a slight vibrational state.
Marcus, your comment about the importance of what you are thinking when you drift off to sleep is very much aligned with what is in Bill Buhlman's book on OBEs. One of the recommendations is to repeat to yourself as you are falling asleep "Now I'm out of body." I've tried that but the most I've been able to accomplish is getting into a slight vibrational state.
Marcus - I read the 'hands' technique in a book on the subject by Robert Waggoner. It's interesting. I have tried it but to no avail so far.
My 'trigger' is to try and look in the mirror, in a dream your reflection barely resembles what you'd expect. The other night whilst dreaming I was on a train I saw there was a mirror and I looked in it and saw what looked like myself at the age of about 15 and the figure in the mirror waved. That was enough to make me realise I was dreaming.
jfish - I've read also that the 2 states are entirely different which is one of the reasons why I'd like to try and induce an OBE and see if I can consciously make things happen as I can in a lucid dream.
For example, in the lucid dream the other night I looked at the sun out of the window and thought about it falling towards the earth and that is what started to happen. Things got a bit intense and I woke up.
Would be interesting to verify the difference in feeling between the 2 states.
My 'trigger' is to try and look in the mirror, in a dream your reflection barely resembles what you'd expect. The other night whilst dreaming I was on a train I saw there was a mirror and I looked in it and saw what looked like myself at the age of about 15 and the figure in the mirror waved. That was enough to make me realise I was dreaming.
jfish - I've read also that the 2 states are entirely different which is one of the reasons why I'd like to try and induce an OBE and see if I can consciously make things happen as I can in a lucid dream.
For example, in the lucid dream the other night I looked at the sun out of the window and thought about it falling towards the earth and that is what started to happen. Things got a bit intense and I woke up.
Would be interesting to verify the difference in feeling between the 2 states.
Really? I have dreamed that I shaved, and there was nothing strange about the reflection, except of course that when I woke up, my beard was still there!
Yeah, I'm starting to think that I may have deep rooted self image issues now.
A lot of my 'false awakenings' have happened when looked at my reflection.
Once I had a lucid dream that I seemed to lose control of quickly and it got a bit frightening so I fought to wake up - although the usual way of waking up didn't work, after a few struggles I did it and sat up in bed feeling really unsettled. Got up, walked to the bathroom, looked in the mirror and my face was completely distorted. Walked back out of the bathroom and looked towards the bedroom and could see both mine and my partners legs in the bed, I freaked out and instantly sat up in bed again - I was actually awake this time. Although I felt extremely weird for the next few hours that morning, as the lucid dream experience felt as real as waking consciousness.
(This could potentially fall into the category above of being in a state of no control, although I think in this instance it was definitely psychological).
Anyway, that sucks for you though, getting up and going through the morning routine only to wake up and have to do it all again! Once I've looked in the mirror I can save myself the bother!
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That has been a theme of a number of dreams I can remember. The alarm clock rings, I get up, read the newspaper in bed, only to be interrupted by the real alarm clock waking me up. This is very frustrating, because I hate being woken by the alarm clock, and in this way I experienced it twice in one morning! I wish I could remember what I read in the newspaper in the dream ...
Yeah - that's interesting, you should leave a notepad by the bed and try and write it down.
I can't read things in my dreams, if I look at a book, it's incoherent generally, which is another launch into a lucid dream. Although not a premeditated one.
If you haven't already done so, you might consider reading one of William Buhlman's books. He outlines procedures he's used to exercise control over his OBE state. His observation (which is consistent with commentary by other OBE writers) is that sometimes the OBE goes beyond being in this physical reality and into a close approximation of this reality (a parallel reality) where there is a close match between the two but observable differences exist.
Why call it a parallel reality, and not just "a dream that closely resembles the physical reality, but where observable differences exist"?
I mean, what entitles the parallel "reality" to be regarded as real?
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Wish thinking can make almost anything appear real. What makes you feel "specialer," a dream or an OBE?
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I will purchase one now
Almost finished my latest book so on the lookout for something new.To touch upon Steenkh's question, what observable differences do you mean? Are you talking about the difference between a lucid dream and an OBE?
In which many reports from regular OBE'rs suggest that in a lucid dream you can manipulate the dreamscape and the surroundings and effectively create the state you are dreaming in, wheras in an OBE you seem bound by a different set of rules that resembles a state where you are not in control and cannot create/manipulate?
This is one of the reasons I am trying to achieve an OBE as well as regular lucid dreams to see if there is a difference for myself.
I know full well that they could just be different states of mind and if you go into an OBE with the expectation that you cannot control your surroundings then the power of your own mind may prevent you from doing so.
I still don't understand why drugs are off the table here. If I wanted to experience a state of altered consciousness, that seems the most direct and reproducible route. There's loads of literature on it and even traditional techniques from various cultures with many claims -- one or several ought to fit.
But I get the sense that using drugs is seen as inauthentic or "dirty" somehow. I'm wondering why that is?
But I get the sense that using drugs is seen as inauthentic or "dirty" somehow. I'm wondering why that is?
Personally, drugs is off the table for me because I don’t want to put myself into a position where I’m not in control of myself.
I assume you’re talking about a hallucinogen and that’s the only reason I haven’t touched it. Not so much because it’s dirty.
If I was in a controlled environment with people that I trusted then I’d give it more consideration.