Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Mrs.Columbo]

I have a hard time imagining this one. She did have a large cloth bag however and that 2004 case probably covers the large bag, large knife theory as well as the no knife found, doesn't matter theory.

My understanding is, the 2004 case covers the easy availability of blade weapons:
therefore that the knife used by Sollecito was not found, is an irrelevant circumstance.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

My understanding is, the 2004 case covers the easy availability of blade weapons:
therefore that the knife used by Sollecito was not found, is an irrelevant circumstance.

I wonder if that 2004 court realised that they were handing future courts a free pass to make up as many knives as they needed without having to justify them in any way at all?

In any case I don't see why we need concern ourselves with what this 2004 court decided. The Massei/Mignini three knife theory is still unsupported by the evidence.

 

[Antony]

a) I do not think there really was a "need" to arm herself with any kind of weapon. Lots of other students and people walking the streets at night to an fro the bars and discos (not armed, I presume). And Amanda has done it often before ever having met Raffaele.

This sounds like agreeing with the proposition that the "knife for protection" claim is unfounded and unlikely speculation on the part of Massei and the prosecution.

She is no fearful person anyway. Remember when she found the cottage door open and spots of blood in the house? Did she call for help? No, undressed, showered, dryed the hair, got dressed. Courageous, I would say.

Of course, you seem to be using this as an argument against the knife theory, but it is actually one of the stories attacking Amanda's character - and in any case, it's not an argument for innocence (because a guilty Amanda would already know the reason for the blood). But it's wrong; she saw the spots of blood after showering.

b) But, if there would have been a "need" to protect herself, then she would have walked: bag on the shoulder, hand in the bag already holding the knife ready to hand.

Which side of this point are you taking? I think this just illustrates how ridiculous the prosecution knife theory is.

 

[bri1]

That seems very reasonable but it is missing something that the court's theory is not. Something official sounding in parenthesis at the end maybe. In your case I would suggest (Edward Scizzorhands 1990); yes I think that is even more convincing.

So funny!

 

[Justinian2]

I give a good antagonist some leeway as they stir the conversation.

I just saw the TV show "What would you do". The Amanda Knox scenario is like a "What would you do" situation where evil authorities gang up on two innocent children and then on their families when they came to the rescue. To the Italian authorities that could effect this miserable gang bang by Mignini and his gang of merry men, I ask "What would you do?".

And to Mark Waterbury and others, I've seen what you can do and I love it! Mark Waterbury expresses my viewpoint perfectly. He's a one man super hero. I would have been too afraid of getting sued to have written his book. I trust he isn't planning a trip to Italy any time soon.

 

[snook1]

I just spoke briefly with Vanessa Sollecito. I assured her that we, as a community, support her family and that it'll be fixed. She thanked and said that they need all the support and that it's not easy to live everyday lives.

Just wanted to share.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Snook1

I just spoke briefly with Vanessa Sollecito. I assured her that we, as a community, support her family and that it'll be fixed. She thanked and said that they need all the support and that it's not easy to live everyday lives.

What community are you referring to?

 

[snook1]

Snook1



What community are you referring to?

Well, maybe I didn't put it in a right way, but I meant, people who believe that RS and AK are innocent. I didn't say here at JREF or at Injustice Boards. Just, we, the supporters.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Well, maybe I didn't put it in a right way, but I meant, people who believe that RS and AK are innocent. I didn't say here at JREF or at Inuustice Boards. Just, we, the supporters.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Malkmus]

Yes this would likely happen that way.


Sorry I did'nt explain my thoughts well enough.


a) I do not think there really was a "need" to arm herself with any kind of weapon. Lots of other students and people walking the streets at night to an fro the bars and discos (not armed, I presume). And Amanda has done it often before ever having met Raffaele.
She is no fearful person anyway. Remember when she found the cottage door open and spots of blood in the house? Did she call for help? No, undressed, showered, dryed the hair, got dressed. Courageous, I would say.

b) But, if there would have been a "need" to protect herself, then she would have walked: bag on the shoulder, hand in the bag already holding the knife ready to hand.

It was established eons ago that Amanda had been given mace by her father upon leaving for her studies abroad. The need for protection was already covered.
Has there been one documented incident where a woman decided to carry a large kitchen knife on her for protection?

 

[Alt+F4]

It was established eons ago that Amanda had been given mace by her father upon leaving for her studies abroad.

She took mace on the airplane with her from Seattle to Italy?

(Yeah, came back to this thread early, broke my ankle, have extended time at home.)

 

[act1roson]

Dear Komponisto,

Originally Posted by act1roson
Komponisto - what is your estimate of probability that those who believe in guilt will 1) Answer your question in the manner requested 2) Respond to your subsequent follow-up questions asking for clarification or other points 3) Respond to your follow-up posts pointing out inconsistencies or actual falsehoods based on what was presented at trial and other reputable sources.

Thank you for your time. I find this particular issue fascinating.

Well, me too! Though, I must admit, I also find it depressing, even alarming. For some reason, this case is what finally caused me to come to grips, on a gut level, with just how little people are to be trusted to evaluate evidence rationally. Somehow, religion, homeopathy, and UFO cults -- though technically worse mistakes -- never quite did it. Obviously, I knew, in intellectual terms, that people were fallible, but it hadn't really hit me; I wasn't quite scared of human folly in the way that I am now.

What's more, discussing this (to whatever extent possible) with those on the opposite side has forced me to confront the fact that some people's brains seem to work in completely different ways from mine. I could actually see myself -- at least, a previous version of myself, perhaps -- making epistemic mistakes similar to those that cause people to believe Knox and Sollecito are guilty; but the kind of things I've been saying here and on Less Wrong, the kind of arguments offered by folks such as Kevin_Lowe (to take one example) would have caused me to snap out of it fairly quickly. Yet they don't seem to have this effect on other people! It's as if there's some sort of fundamental personality difference between people like me and those who believe in guilt, resulting in an unbridgeable cultural gap that makes communication difficult to impossible.

I've been searching in vain to find people who "speak my language" and yet believe in guilt; they just don't seem to exist. The closest I know of is Rolf Nelson, but he never took me up on my debate offer, and anyway I have no idea whether he still believes in guilt a year later or not.

So, to answer your questions, the evidence thus far seems to demand low probabilities for all three. The whole ethos of argument as inquiry, or truth-seeking (as opposed to status-competition), and the whole idea of beliefs as thermometer-readings that go up and down with the flow of information (as opposed to propositions that have been "certified" or not according to some or other "authoritative" procedure), seem to be utterly foreign to almost all guilters, making them very unlikely to be able to participate in the sort of dialogue I'd like to see.

I still eagerly await the discovery of an exception.

Komponisto - I have a question regarding the above. You wrote "discussing this (to whatever extent possible) with those on the opposite side has forced me to confront the fact that some people's brains seem to work in completely different ways from mine. I could actually see myself -- at least, a previous version of myself, perhaps -- making epistemic mistakes similar to those that cause people to believe Knox and Sollecito are guilty..."

Do you think your life experiences affected your current brain usage (as regards to this case) more or your level of education, and the type of education you received?

 

[Alt+F4]

The Amanda Knox scenario is like a "What would you do" situation where evil authorities gang up on two innocent children and then on their families when they came to the rescue.

Now they are "children"? This appeal to emotion only further exposes how weak their appeal really is.

 

[Alt+F4]

I just spoke briefly with Vanessa Sollecito.

Might I ask, how were you able to get in contact with her? How did you get her telephone number? Does she speak English? Do you speak Italian?

 

[JREF2010]

I wonder if that 2004 court realised that they were handing future courts a free pass to make up as many knives as they needed without having to justify them in any way at all?

In any case I don't see why we need concern ourselves with what this 2004 court decided. The Massei/Mignini three knife theory is still unsupported by the evidence.

yes, not being legally educated myself, this changing of theory's in this case seems to be a never ending situation.

the comment previously, about the prank theory, made me realize the "theory hole" is very deep, maybe even a infinite supply of theory's.

 

[RWVBWL]

I just spoke briefly with Vanessa Sollecito. I assured her that we, as a community, support her family and that it'll be fixed. She thanked and said that they need all the support and that it's not easy to live everyday lives.

Just wanted to share.

Hi Snook1,
Thanks for sharing.
If Raffaele Sollecito is indeed truly innocent, his family too truly suffers...
RW

PS-Get well soon, Alt-F4...

 

[Alt+F4]

PS-Get well soon, Alt-F4...

Thanks, just a few annoying days at home.

 

[babycondor]

She took mace on the airplane with her from Seattle to Italy?

(Yeah, came back to this thread early, broke my ankle, have extended time at home.)

Are you certain it is broken? Perhaps it's a bad sprain. Please substantiate your claim by posting a notarized copy of the attending physician's written diagnosis and an x-ray of your ankle clearly marked with the date and name of the patient. Thanks in advance.

 

[Malkmus]

She took mace on the airplane with her from Seattle to Italy?

(Yeah, came back to this thread early, broke my ankle, have extended time at home.)

Apparently, yes. You can check mace you know. Just not in your carry on.

 

[snook1]

Might I ask, how were you able to get in contact with her? How did you get her telephone number? Does she speak English? Do you speak Italian?

We didn't talk on the phone. She speaks English pretty well, I speak Italian just a little bit.