General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[Skeptic]

in that thread i never defended the murderers.

To "explain" the murder by blaming the victims is to defend the murderers.

an individual was responsible for that, not all palestinians.

Gee, that's funny. I could have sworn certain people always claim terrorist acts by the Palestinians are part of the "liberation struggle" and "fight against occupation of the Palestinian people."

Suddenly when the terrorism act *cough* "liberation struggle" act *cough* is particularly henious, it's just some private action? Where were you in the previous 10,000 attacks by Palestinians on Israelies?

 

[bikerdruid]

To "explain" the murder by blaming the victims is to defend the murderers.

you had best go back and re-read what i wrote.
so, you wish to justify the killing of hundreds of children by your country,
because some lone whacko killed a family?

 

[Pardalis]

So you got nothing to say about Skeptic's links?

 

[bikerdruid]

Were any of these kids homosexuals?

certainly some were. 5-10 percent, probably, just like any human population.

 

[bikerdruid]

So you got nothing to say about Skeptic's links?

no.
QUIT supports the rights of palestinian people.
QUIT's courage is shown by their efforts, despite the treatment of queers by their rulers.
there are jews, israelis, christians and all sorts of people, that empathize for the plight of the palestinian people, despite the abuses of their leaders.

 

[Pardalis]

no.

So your homosexual solidarity stops at Palestinians homosexuals?

 

[bikerdruid]

So your homosexual solidarity stops at Palestinians homosexuals?

no.

 

[Pardalis]

no.

I believe yes, otherwise you wouldn't give your support to governements that treat homosexuals like perverts, or degenerates, and kills them for simply being gay.

 

[Skeptic]

the two situations are not similar.

I'll say they aren't.

Let us take the case of the Fogel family.

Imagine, if you will, that theyweren't stabbed to death in their sleep. Imagine instead house was taken over by a crazed extremist Israeli, much like Gaza was taken over by Hamas.

Now imagine that he wouldn't let them leave and established a terror rule in the house, much like the way Gaza is ruled over by Hamas.

Now imagine, further, that for years -- indeed, a decade or so -- that Israeli randomly fired mortars, grenades, rockets, etc., at nearby Palestinian villages, with the idea of killing as many Palestinians as he could, like Hamas did from Gaza.

Now imagine, on top of that, that no moderate action by the PA police force (requests, threats, limited actions to take away his mortars, etc.) had much effect on this crazed man, nor any attempt at an unofficial ceasefire lasted more than a a few days -- much like no attempts to get Hamas to stop killing Jews succeeded.

Finally, imagine that after all these years the PA got sick and tired of it, sent a commando PA force to take the guy out, and, in the raid, the entire family was killed in a firefight, mostly due to the fact that the guy deliberately hid behind the children as he shot at the PA's policemen, much like Hamas did in Gaza during operation "cast lead".

Now... who would the family's death fault be in that case? The PA's policemen because "the children are not responsible for the shooter's policy"? Or the shooter's for deliberately hiding behind civilians after leaving the PA's policemen -- acting, in this case, in the name of the Palestinian people -- no choice but to fight?

...exactly.

 

[bikerdruid]

I believe yes, otherwise you wouldn't give your support to governements that treat homosexuals like perverts, or degenerates, and kills them for simply being gay.

in the same manner, no jews or christians should feel empathy for palestinian children, because hamas promotes hatred of jews and christians.
your logic is failing.

 

[Pardalis]

Again with the children...

 

[Thunder]

I believe yes, otherwise you wouldn't give your support to governements that treat homosexuals like perverts, or degenerates, and kills them for simply being gay.

one can support an end to the Israeli Occupation without supporting Hamas.

though, I know that Neo-Zionists love to argue that to be against Israeli settlements is to be pro-Hamas. its very cute...but pathetic.

 

[Pardalis]

This groups is called "Queers for Palestine". They're not a group of people that just happen to be homosexuals, their homosexuality is what makes them a group.

Therefore, their main focus should be LGBT rights worldwide, right?

 

[bikerdruid]

Again with the children...

absolutely.

 

[Pardalis]

absolutely.

And what if they grow up and find out they're gay, they won't have much of a life in Palestine.

 

[Thunder]

You are correct. The 600,000 represented 10% of the 6,000,000 Jews that were murdered.

these 600,000 Jews came over a period of 60 odd years. they were not murdered by anyone, so they do not represent 10% of the 6 million Holocaust victims. what are you talking about????

Should Israel return the hundreds of thousand Ethiopian black Jews and the 1,500,000 Russian Jews?

again, what are you talking about???

Your solution to the Jew Problem?

the only folks I know of who think there is a "Jew Problem", are Neo-Nazis.

are you a Neo-Nazi?

 

[Thunder]

This groups is called "Queers for Palestine". They're not a group of people that just happen to be homosexuals, their homosexuality is what makes them a group.

Therefore, their main focus should be LGBT rights worldwide, right?

wait..so that means the main focus for Jews...should be Jewish rights?

the main focus for blacks..should be black rights?

that's a a pretty selfish and self-serving perspective, wouldn't you say?

 

[bikerdruid]

And what if they grow up and find out they're gay, they won't have much of a life in Palestine.

is it wrong to hope for a better future?
when i was a queer youth, in canada, i could have been evicted from my apartment or fired from my job, for being queer.
i could have been imprisoned for simply having sex.
my life has been threatened, and i have been beaten for being queer.
attitudes change.

 

[Skeptic]

one can support an end to the Israeli Occupation without supporting Hamas.

True, but it doesn't take long to get certain regular posters here (not all of them by any means) to get from "I support the Palestinian people" to "stop libeling Hamas, you evil right-wing zionist extremist!" or to "so what if Hamas denies the holocaust?" or to "well, so what if the baby was stabbed to death? They had it coming, they were Jews who lived where Arabs don't want them to" or to "I support folks who would have people like me lynched as a pervert, so long as they want Israel destroyed."

So I'd say that in the case of those posters, though certainly not in the case of all posters who support the Palestinians on certain issues, they are at least sympathetic to (if not actively supporting) Hamas in particular and Palestinian exterminationism in general, and the "I just support the Palestinian people" thingy is just an excuse.

 

[Skeptic]

is it wrong to hope for a better future?

No, but it is certainly wrong to support the very terrorists who would do their darndest to make sure the only future the children have, after first serving as human shields to defend the terrorists from attack, is to be to be jailed or lynched.

You might as well claim that a black person in the 1960s south would do well to support the KKK against the freedom riders, since Black children were once those folks came from up north stirring up our negroes, and, after all, can't we hope the KKK will eventually change and become non-racist?