Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[CoulsdonUK]

NapalmSticksToKids

Your post was a distortion of the truth in that it implied that the defence are claiming no buses of any kind were running on Nov 1st 2007 and no clubs at all were open. The defence have never claimed this.

I said

I am more than curious to read the outcome of today’s proceedings. As for the witnesses today, if I owned a club in Perugia or ran a tourist bus service I could only comment about what my club or bus company did on the night Meredith was murdered, I could not state that no clubs were open or that no buses where running.

I expressed an opinion that all any witness could say was that their club was closed or my buses were not running.

What do you think the witnesses said?

Coaching? Well one would hope that an experienced trial lawyer shouldn’t have too much difficulty exposing someone’s mental state, I guess we’ll see.

 

[Kaosium]

We know exactly how long it took before they killed her according to the prosecution. Curatolo places Sollecito and Knox at the basketball court until 11:30 pm. Meredith was killed at 11:30 pm according to the prosecution.

So they ran into the cottage at 11:30 and killed Meredith immediately. Then they immediately ran away in different directions according to Cappezalli.

Something I came across when looking for something else I need to dig up: when going through Frank Sfarzo's old posts looking for information on the interrogation I came across a reference to Cappezalli's first mention of the scream, and I read it as her initially claiming it was around 9 PM. Naturally since that didn't fit their narrative they must have 'modified' it, (by her bladder if I recall correctly from Massei) but that would correlate to when it seems most likely she could have heard a scream...one not impeded by the window at the cottage as that had been broken already....

 

[Danny]

NapalmSticksToKids



I said

I expressed an opinion that all any witness could say was that their club was closed or my buses were not running.

What do you think the witnesses said?

What was the purpose of expressing the opinion? Were you in some way adding to the sum of human knowledge?

Why would club owners not be able to say with reasonable certainty whether other club owners were operating disco buses on the night of the murder?

Are you suggesting they don't even know the most basic details about their rivals?

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Kaosium\Halides1

Assuming the reports prove accurate regarding the knife and Meredith’s bra clasp how else can the geneticist carry out the courts direction?

 

[CoulsdonUK]

What was the purpose of expressing the opinion? Were you in some way adding to the sum of human knowledge?

Why would club owners not be able to say with reasonable certainty whether other club owners were operating disco buses on the night of the murder?

Are you suggesting they don't even know the most basic details about their rivals?

What do you think the witnesses said.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

an objective analysis would be nice

What Raffaele's DNA? If you look at the profile its a massive pile of RFU markers that allowed Stefanoni to pick out what profile they wanted. His profile is cherry picked, with apparently him sharing numerous markers that belonged to Meredith.

Chris C,

I have some questions about the objectivity of the first analysis myself, and I have expressed those views here in previous comments. Therefore, I would welcome an independent (and non-suspect centered) analysis of the autosomal DNA. However, I think that the YSTR data support the notion that Sollecito's DNA is present.

 

[Danny]

What do you think the witnesses said.

As i understand it, they testified that no disco shuttle buses as described by Curatolo were running that night.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

in brief

Kaosium\Halides1

Assuming the reports prove accurate regarding the knife and Meredith’s bra clasp how else can the geneticist carry out the courts direction?

CoulsdonUK,

I may give a more expansive answer later. They can still look at the videos of evidence collection, they can look at the electronic data files, and they can evaluate Stefanoni's low template number technique. They can also consider the question of how there can be DNA on the blade of a knife but not blood.

 

[pilot padron]

Kaosium\Halides1

Assuming the reports prove accurate regarding the knife and Meredith’s bra clasp how else can the geneticist carry out the courts direction?

In the interest of just keeping this simple....

Judge Hellman directed his appointed experts to examine the dna evidence on the knife and bra and to report their findings by May 9.

In his wisdom, he stated that if insufficient dna materiel remained to allow a re-test, the experts were to examine the original methodology used by Dr Stefanoni and give their best professional opinions on the methodology and resultant conclusions.

Sounds pretty straightforward even to one not well versed in vertical gardening, does it not ??.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

what is meant by examine

In the interest of just keeping this simple....

Judge Hellman directed his appointed experts to examine the dna evidence on the knife and bra and to report their findings by May 9.

In his wisdom, he stated that if insufficient dna materiel remained to allow a re-test, the experts were to examine the original methodology used by Dr Stefanoni and give their best professional opinions on the methodology and resultant conclusions.

Sounds pretty straightforward even to one not well versed in vertical gardening, does it not ??.

pilot padron,

There is a great deal of latitude in the meaning of the word "examine," as I see it. Your comment about vertical gardening is noted.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

CoulsdonUK,

I may give a more expansive answer later. They can still look at the videos of evidence collection, they can look at the electronic data files, and they can evaluate Stefanoni's low template number technique. They can also consider the question of how there can be DNA on the blade of a knife but not blood.

Halides1

I look forward with interest, thank you.

 

[Kaosium]

Kaosium\Halides1

Assuming the reports prove accurate regarding the knife and Meredith’s bra clasp how else can the geneticist carry out the courts direction?

“If possible, the tests must be redone,” Judge Claudio Pratillo Helmen told the court. “If they can’t be re-tested, then the procedures must be closely examined.”

Courtesy of Barbie Nadeau, thus the curious spelling of Judge Hellman's name.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

In the interest of just keeping this simple....

Judge Hellman directed his appointed experts to examine the dna evidence on the knife and bra and to report their findings by May 9.

In his wisdom, he stated that if insufficient dna materiel remained to allow a re-test, the experts were to examine the original methodology used by Dr Stefanoni and give their best professional opinions on the methodology and resultant conclusions.

Sounds pretty straightforward even to one not well versed in vertical gardening, does it not ??.

Thank you, I guess then it will as ever be down to the judge’s discretion of whatever is eventually reported.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

“If possible, the tests must be redone,” Judge Claudio Pratillo Helmen told the court. “If they can’t be re-tested, then the procedures must be closely examined.”

Courtesy of Barbie Nadeau, thus the curious spelling of Judge Hellman's name.

Well we knew that knife had zip DNA left on it, so no surprise there. However, metholody\procedures compared to what standard Italian or was an international standard stated?

Any mention anywhere of dismantling the knife as one of the experts requested?

I spelt it Helmand as in Afghanistan, maybe I should just stick to appeal judge.

 

[Kaosium]

Here's something interesting:

I found this digging through old Perugia Shock posts trying to find that bit about the old lady originally hearing the scream at 9 PM, instead of later in the night.

This is from the era when few were following Frank's blog (he was lucky to get three comments in those days) and answers something many have wondered about regarding Patrick Lumumba and the notorious Daily Mail piece which somehow didn't garner him a 'slander' charge. It helps to explain how Patrick could have been interviewed in the article despite not speaking English, as if they're spending 70k Euro on the interview, they'll be sure to have an interpreter handy!

This is definitely the 'soulless' piece recently quoted in part verbatim in the Lifetime Movie:

"And so, it’s official; Patrick’s interview was sold to the Mail on Sunday for 70.000 €. At the same time, the rights to his image for the next three years have been entrusted to an agent from Spoleto, Umbria, in connection with Fabrizio Corona. So, from today, if you want to speak with Patrick, you will need to present yourself in Spoleto with a sizeable check; they will throw in a pair of underwear for the price. And if you are lucky, not only will the underwear be designer-wear but they will also have been worn by Fabrizio Corona. The olfactory proof will delight!

Unfortunately, in keeping with what Amanda wrote from prison, Patrick’s interview confirms the behavior of our police. Beyond this, it offers a portrait of Amanda that could not be worse; evil personified.
We’ll talk more about it this evening."

 

[christianahannah]

Chris C,

I have some questions about the objectivity of the first analysis myself, and I have expressed those views here in previous comments. Therefore, I would welcome an independent (and non-suspect centered) analysis of the autosomal DNA. However, I think that the YSTR data support the notion that Sollecito's DNA is present.

I think that the Y-haplotype test moved the analysis away from suspect centered.

There is a question I am not sure of the answer which I also asked at Perugia-Shock. It concerns whether there is any more extracted DNA from the clasp to test.

Page 199 Massei Motivations -PMF

She confirmed that the DNA which belonged to Raffaele Sollecito, had been found only on the hooks and that the obtained amplification result was an "absolutely good quality result" (page 109).

During the hearing on October 4, 2008, presided by the Preliminary Hearing Judge [GUP] (see page 47. and what follows of the related acquired record) she stressed that the analysis could also be repeated and she added that the "DNA that is extracted is kept in the best possible conditions, and therefore, in a refrigerated environment between minus 25 degrees and minus 28 degrees Centigrade... it is however subject to atmospheric, physical and chemical aggressions that could certainly compromise its usage; ...DNA, however has a process, that is to say, a molecule already in and of itself which has undergone damage and can continue to be subject to it, even in position, in refrigeration preservation" and she further specified that "DNA like any other molecule, when it is frozen and unfrozen....can be subject to damage and one must verify if the molecule remained absolutely intact".

According to this passage is there additional, stored, extracted DNA from the clasp which can be tested? Is that even possible?

 

[el buscador]

So, Patrick hired a PR firm.

 

[Kaosium]

Well we knew that knife had zip DNA left on it, so no surprise there. However, metholody\procedures compared to what standard Italian or was an international standard stated?

As for the former, what happened to Amanda's DNA on the handle? It was supposed to be swimming in it. As for the latter, after the last trial I'm not sure Italy has any standards, they kinda made them up there as they went along, and used what was damning to the accused regardless of any international standard. I recall reading that at that time Italy had not signed on to any conventions, which is what allowed those bizarre procedures to be overlooked. I am hoping this time they will adhere to at least basic EU standards, that's what they should be looking to move to in the near future anyways, you'd think.

Any mention anywhere of dismantling the knife as one of the experts requested?

Nothing new that I've seen, perhaps they are waiting until the results of their initial foray can be determined to see if the judge will overrule the prosecution's protests.

I spelt it Helmand as in Afganistan, maybe I should just stick to appeal judge.

You're not getting paid like she is, you can spell it any damn way you please.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

As for the former, what happened to Amanda's DNA on the handle? It was supposed to be swimming in it. As for the latter, after the last trial I'm not sure Italy has any standards, they kinda made them up there as they went along, and used what was damning to the accused regardless of any international standard. I recall reading that at that time Italy had not signed on to any conventions, which is what allowed those bizarre procedures to be overlooked. I am hoping this time they will adhere to at least basic EU standards, that's what they should be looking to move to in the near future anyways, you'd think.



Nothing new that I've seen, perhaps they are waiting until the results of their initial foray can be determined to see if the judge will overrule the prosecution's protests.



You're not getting paid like she is, you can spell it any damn way you please.

I would be wrong but I think this is heading away from re-examination of evidence and heading towards documentation, procedure and methodology.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

So, Patrick hired a PR firm.

Is there something wrong if he did?