Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Alt+F4]

I must have missed the post where you explain how you justify your own opinion about the case, which differs from that of the court.

Yes, I guess you did miss it. I said my opinion could change. You have said your opinion won't change despite the fact you have not read the actual testimony of 88 of the 89 witnesses who testified in this case.

 

[Kaosium]

How would you know? You have no idea what she said in her actual testimony in court. You know nothing except what has been filtered and feed to you via the Internet.

Which in this day and age is all we know about anything.

Let me put it to you this way, is there any other historical event you know with such detail? The other day you produced a list of ninety or so people who testified in court, now how many signers of the Declaration of Independence can you name off the top of your head? Yet you feel you have a good handle on what went down that day in Philadelphia? Could you notice in a reenactment that Little Round Top was the extreme left flank of the Army of the Potomac at Gettysburg, like you know there's no other print of Rudy around the bathmat? Do you know the circumstances surrounding the assassination of Robert Kennedy as well as you do the timeline of this murder? Still sure it was Sirhan, Sirhan?

They didn't hide their proof of Amanda and Raffaele's guilt so that it would have to be parsed carefully from the trial testimony, they gift-wrapped it in 400 pages of the Motivations Report. If you can't find your guilt there, you won't find it anywhere...unless you start looking at the guilty people. Oh, guild abounds in this case, it's a guilt-laden environment to be sure, you just have to start wondering about why Amanda was arrested, and what happened to those interrogation tapes, and the computers, and all the lies told to the press...

There's where you'll find neon green glowing gobsmackings of guilt!

 

[Chris C]

Yes, I guess you did miss it. I said my opinion could change. You have said your opinion won't change despite the fact you have not read the actual testimony of 88 of the 89 witnesses who testified in this case.

Until the ToD is fixed in this case it doesn't matter if you only read the testimony of 1 witness out of 200,000. Currently the forensic ToD is set before 10pm. Yet the conviction ToD is after 11:30pm.

 

[Alt+F4]

Let me put it to you this way, is there any other historical event you know with such detail?

Do you mean are there any other trials in which such detail is open to the general public. If so, yes, thousands. Here's just one example from the Innocence Project regarding the Todd Willingham trial...it's the entire HUGE trial transcript.

http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/Cameron_Todd_Willingham_Trial_Transcripts.php

The other day you produced a list of ninety or so people who testified in court, now how many signers of the Declaration of Independence can you name off the top of your head?

Are you kidding me? Read again what you just wrote.

 

[Alt+F4]

Currently the forensic ToD is set before 10pm.

By whom?

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Yes, I guess you did miss it. I said my opinion could change.

That's not an answer. You disagreed with the last court ruling. Why can't we?

You say you will kowtow to the next court ruling... what has changed that makes this court's ruling better than the last court's ruling, which you disagreed with? What will be stopping you disagreeing with the new ruling if you want to?

You have said your opinion won't change despite the fact you have not read the actual testimony of 88 of the 89 witnesses who testified in this case.

This is simply not true. I said it won't change unless new evidence is presented. I don't know why you misrepresent me like that.

That evidence could, in very tenuous theory, be hiding in the existing trial transcripts. It's a hilarious act of pure faith to believe that has even a tiny likelihood of being true, since if it's true Massei, Christiani, Mignini, Maresca, Comodi, Michaelnelli, Penny Ganong, Peter Quennell and every other professional and amateur advocate of guilt has hopelessly dropped the ball. Keep believing it if you need something to cling to.

That evidence could, in very tenuous theory, have been hiding somewhere else. I have no idea where that could be and neither do you.

It's of course far more likely the evidence simply doesn't exist. I think you probably know that.

Not being inclined to change my views except on the basis of evidence is what separates me from irrational people.

Bear in mind here I'm specifically mocking your hypocritical argument that we aren't entitled to say the court is wrong, while you quite happily do so yourself.

The fact is we have overwhelmingly good scientific reasons to say with near absolute certainty that the Massei report got it totally wrong. The fact is we are about as entitled to say the Massei report is wrong as we fallible humans ever get to be.

 

[Chris C]

By whom?

By all of Meredith's friends testimony that were present with her prior to Meredith's murder. Until they recant their own testimony or the coroner's autopsy is proven to be wrong. That will forever be your forensic ToD. There is no way around that. People can jump up and down and say whatever they want. However, by now, you should have studied enough of this case to understand the difference between the coroner's report and testimony of Meredith's friends compared to the pure fantasy of the prosecutions satanic sex fueled orgy rape murder ToD.

 

[Alt+F4]

This is simply not true. I said it won't change unless new evidence is presented.

You don't even know what the original evidence was presented!

 

[Alt+F4]

By all of Meredith's friends testimony

Which you haven't read.

However, by now, you should have studied enough of this case to understand the difference between the coroner's report...

Something else you haven't read.

 

[Chris C]

Which you haven't read.



Something else you haven't read.

So this is the new guilter stance. You haven't stood on the moon, so therefore how do you know it exists. Maybe you could find some evidence I'm wrong or do you honestly believe there is some kinda gag order that has prevented people from reporting the correct findings of the coroner's report.

I'll do you a favor though. I'll post you a document, you can decide what to do with it.

http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/Raffaele_Sollecito_Appeal.pdf

Heck I'll even edit this post and post you a preview of the appeals argument concerning the ToD.

nonostante la salma di Meredith non sia stata pesata, aver determinato il peso della ragazza ricorrendo alle formule usate per calcolare il peso-forma, non può aver fornito risultati attendibili (p.179 sentenza). Tenuto conto dell’età di 21 anni e dell’altezza di m. 1,64, infatti, le formule di Lorenz usate per calcolare il peso forma hanno indicato che Meredith pesasse 57 Kg., collocando quindi l’ora della morte alle ore 21:50. Se fossero state usate le formule di Broca, invece, sarebbe stato indicato un peso di 60 Kg., e quindi l’ora di morte si sarebbe collocata alle ore 20:00;

Sulla base di tali precisazioni si può affermare che, pur tenendo conto del più ampio range indicato dalla maggior parte dei consulenti, l’epoca della morte sarebbe collocabile alle ore 22:50 del l’1.11.2007.
È possibile, tuttavia, da un punto di vista scientifico, restringere ulteriormente tale range, utilizzando il contenuto gastrico, per entità (500 cc.) e per composizione (pasta frolla, mozzarella, vegetali, fettine di mela), nonché il confronto tra lo stesso e l’ultimo pasto assunto dalla vittima riferito dai testi: l’epoca di morte sarebbe in tal modo collocabile, in base ad un criterio medico-legale di massima attendibilità (stante le univoche e convergenti opinioni dei vari consulenti e periti), a distanza di 2-3/3-4 ore dall’inizio dell’assunzione dell’ultimo pasto noto (ore 18:30-19:00 dell’1.11.2007) e quindi intorno alle ore 21:30-22:00.

Is the defense lying about the coroners actual testimony?

So you claim I haven't read it? My response is, get you some and read all about it.

 

[Kaosium]

Do you mean are there any other trials in which such detail is open to the general public. If so, yes, thousands. Here's just one example from the Innocence Project regarding the Todd Willingham trial...it's the entire HUGE trial transcript.

http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/Cameron_Todd_Willingham_Trial_Transcripts.php

28 MB? 725 pages? That's a mere fraction of what's available in this case! The Massei Motivations Report, the Diaries, the 'gift' note, the Michaeli Report, the transcripts (some video!)of Amanda testifying, her e-mail, gigabytes of crime scene pictures and video, documents pertaining to the case including the electropherograms from the DNA tests. Perhaps you're not aware of the scope of the material available.

Are you kidding me? Read again what you just wrote.

Perhaps I wrote that poorly, let me try again: you know so much more than just what the transcripts might reveal, just as you know enough about what happened 'In Congress' on July, 4th, 1776. You don't need the 'minutes' of that session to know just exactly what they meant by that proclamation, anymore than you need the transcripts to reveal what Massei was declaring in his motivations report.

 

[RoseMontague]

The TOD and the stomach contents question has been discussed many times here and there is a ton of information in the various motivations, reports, and appeals about this.

All of the experts both on the side of the prosecution and defense attempt to narrow the TOD based on the stomach contents. As pointed out in the appeal listed above:

Dr. Lalli puts it at not more than 2-3 hours from the last meal.
Bacci and Dr. Liviero have it not mare than 2-3/3-4 hours.
Ronchi has it 3-4 hours.

To me the common number is about 3 hours from the consumption of the meal and some of that meal should have moved to her duodenum after 3 hours. What I find confusing about the experts testimony is their confusion regarding the time of the meal itself and whether this measurement is taken from the beginning or end of the meal. Some seem to use the end of the meal, some the beginning, and one as a continuous consumption over a period of time. The time of the meal seems to range form 6:30-7:00 in the appeal to some of the experts stating they know it was finished by 9PM because at that point Meredith had returned home.

From the information presented here it seems to me that the beginning of the meal is the time that measurement should start and from the various documents it is clear from testimony of Sophie Purton and Meredith's friends that the meal started around 6PM. They ate pizza while watching a movie and at some point during the movie they had an apple dish for dessert. Both of these foods were still in her stomach when she died. I don't believe that Meredith sat there without eating any pizza for an hour while they watched the movie and others ate, there is no indication that I can see that this happened. I think 6:30 as the latest she began to eat is a reasonable starting point. To me that puts the latest TOD at about 9:30.

The confirmation of this is seen in Meredith's cell phone records. There is an aborted phone call at 8:56PM and Meredith made no further attempt after that to call home and it was her habit to do so each night before she went to bed. Meredith did not change her clothes after she had arrived home, nor did she remove the wet clothes from the washer that she had placed in there before she left for her friends place earlier that day. Just before 10PM there is an aborted call to voicemail and then an unsuccessful call to her bank that left the country code out of the number. This is not consistent with Meredith's previous phone records and I believe it was Rudy that caused this. At 10:13 there was an SMS message that connected to the phone that came from a tower that did not normally connect to Meredith's place at that time of day that indicates to me that Rudy had already left the flat by that time. The defense points out that there is a good connection to this tower at a halfway point between Meredith's flat and the location the phones were found the next day.

The other confirmation is Rudy's statements. He admitted he was present during the murder so there is no reason that I can see that he would lie about the times he was there. He stated he was waiting on Meredith to arrive and we know she arrived there shortly before 9PM. Rudy also states he left her place by around 10:30 and went home to change clothes before going out again.

Massei, on the other hand, wraps his TOD around Curatolo's testimony. This particular heroin dealing vagrant park bench bum states that Amanda and Raffaele left the basketball court around 11:30 so Massei puts the TOD much later than the other evidence I have mentioned. He believes that Meredith was on her bed playing with her phones during the time these 10PM calls happened, completely ignoring Rudy's statements and the defense theory regarding the cell phone records. Massei found this witness to be the ultimate in credibility, saying later:

The prosecutor Giuliano Mignini called the homeless "One of the key points and most important of the evidence. Credible credibilissimo absolute trustworthiness and reliability of ... ... proof, full circle, full stop. "

 

[snook1]

The TOD and the stomach contents question has been discussed many times here and there is a ton of information in the various motivations, reports, and appeals about this.

All of the experts both on the side of the prosecution and defense attempt to narrow the TOD based on the stomach contents. As pointed out in the appeal listed above:

Dr. Lalli puts it at not more than 2-3 hours from the last meal.
Bacci and Dr. Liviero have it not mare than 2-3/3-4 hours.
Ronchi has it 3-4 hours.

To me the common number is about 3 hours from the consumption of the meal and some of that meal should have moved to her duodenum after 3 hours. What I find confusing about the experts testimony is their confusion regarding the time of the meal itself and whether this measurement is taken from the beginning or end of the meal. Some seem to use the end of the meal, some the beginning, and one as a continuous consumption over a period of time. The time of the meal seems to range form 6:30-7:00 in the appeal to some of the experts stating they know it was finished by 9PM because at that point Meredith had returned home.

From the information presented here it seems to me that the beginning of the meal is the time that measurement should start and from the various documents it is clear from testimony of Sophie Purton and Meredith's friends that the meal started around 6PM. They ate pizza while watching a movie and at some point during the movie they had an apple dish for dessert. Both of these foods were still in her stomach when she died. I don't believe that Meredith sat there without eating any pizza for an hour while they watched the movie and others ate, there is no indication that I can see that this happened. I think 6:30 as the latest she began to eat is a reasonable starting point. To me that puts the latest TOD at about 9:30.

The confirmation of this is seen in Meredith's cell phone records. There is an aborted phone call at 8:56PM and Meredith made no further attempt after that to call home and it was her habit to do so each night before she went to bed. Meredith did not change her clothes after she had arrived home, nor did she remove the wet clothes from the washer that she had placed in there before she left for her friends place earlier that day. Just before 10PM there is an aborted call to voicemail and then an unsuccessful call to her bank that left the country code out of the number. This is not consistent with Meredith's previous phone records and I believe it was Rudy that caused this. At 10:13 there was an SMS message that connected to the phone that came from a tower that did not normally connect to Meredith's place at that time of day that indicates to me that Rudy had already left the flat by that time. The defense points out that there is a good connection to this tower at a halfway point between Meredith's flat and the location the phones were found the next day.

The other confirmation is Rudy's statements. He admitted he was present during the murder so there is no reason that I can see that he would lie about the times he was there. He stated he was waiting on Meredith to arrive and we know she arrived there shortly before 9PM. Rudy also states he left her place by around 10:30 and went home to change clothes before going out again.

Massei, on the other hand, wraps his TOD around Curatolo's testimony. This particular heroin dealing vagrant park bench bum states that Amanda and Raffaele left the basketball court around 11:30 so Massei puts the TOD much later than the other evidence I have mentioned. He believes that Meredith was on her bed playing with her phones during the time these 10PM calls happened, completely ignoring Rudy's statements and the defense theory regarding the cell phone records. Massei found this witness to be the ultimate in credibility.

What a great post Rose.
Did Rudy say at what time he entered the cottage?

It's incredible how Massei is ignoring all the evidence suggesting that the attack and the murder occured around 21:00 - 21:30.

 

[RoseMontague]

What a great post Rose.
Did Rudy say at what time he entered the cottage?

It's incredible how Massei is ignoring all the evidence suggesting that the attack and the murder occured around 21:00 - 21:30.

According to Rudy's statements presented in his first appeal Motivations report he had an appointment (date) with Meredith at 8:50PM. He arrived early (7:30 to 7:45) but the boys downstairs were not home (the assumption being he was going to hang with them until that point). He then left to get something to eat (kebab) and return where he waited about 8 minutes and Meredith let him in. I believe the truth is he returned and broke in to the flat already having determined nobody was home from his earlier visit.

 

[Supernaut]

The Rome independent DNA experts will now either endorse or not endorse Dr. Stefanoni's findings.

How would you know?

How about:- "The Rome independent DNA experts will now either neither endorse or not nor not endorse Dr. Stefanoni's findings" and the charade then carries on to a denouement at the Supreme Court in Rome, sometime around 2014.

Would 7 years in prison for nothing for AK and RS be enough to make you happy?

BTW, where can we read (or read about) "doctor" Stephony's, er, doctorate? I can't find a single reference to anything at all in the 'peer-reviewed' scientific literature authored by her.

 

[Supernaut]

So this is the new guilter stance. You haven't stood on the moon, so therefore how do you know it exists.

.......

I haven't been to the South Pole, but I know it's cold there.

 

[babycondor]

The prosecutor Giuliano Mignini called the homeless "One of the key points and most important of the evidence. Credible credibilissimo absolute trustworthiness and reliability of ... ... proof, full circle, full stop. "

People often exaggerate when they're lying.

OTOH, if the TOD is no later than 22:30 and if Curatolo is so credible, then his alibi for Amanda and Raffaele is rock solid.

Oh wait. Mignini believes the TOD was 24:30. I guess he's allowed to choose whichever time he likes, as long as it is corroborated by his credibilissimo witness.

 

[Kaosium]

According to Rudy's statements presented in his first appeal Motivations report he had an appointment (date) with Meredith at 8:50PM. He arrived early (7:30 to 7:45) but the boys downstairs were not home (the assumption being he was going to hang with them until that point). He then left to get something to eat (kebab) and return where he waited about 8 minutes and Meredith let him in. I believe the truth is he returned and broke in to the flat already having determined nobody was home from his earlier visit.

I think you hit on something here that I've been wondering about. Rudy must have had some 'inside information' as his story doesn't make much sense without him 'knowing'--or at least reasonably supposing--that no one would be home that night, or thinking someone might return at any moment. I've read that Meredith actually left for home earlier than usual as she was still feeling the effects of the night before, I wonder if through his contacts with the boys downstairs whether he knew that.

Otherwise it doesn't make much sense for Rudy to break in, shuffle around, take a dump, help himself to some refreshment, then take his leisurely time being a creepy killer. I suspect as you do he was already inside when Meredith returned, her calling her mother upon arrival to the cottage was interrupted by Rudy''s attack, thus her digestion stops at about 9 PM, high levels of anxiety being one confounding factor there, and coming home to find someone in your home and being stabbed shortly thereafter would qualify.

I think this is important, being as 3 hours out you're already at the far end of the gaussian curve for t(lag)--that being the amount of time it takes for the stomach contents to start emptying into the duodenum. 'Gaussian Curve' being a fancy way of saying a 'normal distribution,' meaning like a bell curve where the far right end is getting more and more unlikely, and looks like the end of a ski slope that flattened out. At any rate, despite the final time of death her digestion should more or less freeze once the attack begins, thus it seems most probable to me that she was stabbed right around 9PM and it would have taken her some time for her heart to stop beating and cause death in finality. 9:30 seems like a good estimate.

I think as you do the phone records suggest that he left shortly after 10:00 PM, first fiddling with the phones causing the bank call and voice-mail attempt, and then the incoming SMS message at 10:13 reminding him of the fact he could be traced through the phones upon which time he threw them. That still leaves about an hour he must have spent at the cottage, which still strikes me as somewhat odd, but less so if he had reason to believe no one else would be home, knowing perhaps through the boys downstairs that Amanda was staying with Raffaele regularly now and that Laura and Filomena would be gone all night.

Mentioning digestion and t(lag) has made me wonder where the hell LondonJohn has been lately, I've not seen him post in weeks it seems!

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Dr. Lalli puts it at not more than 2-3 hours from the last meal.
Bacci and Dr. Liviero have it not mare than 2-3/3-4 hours.
Ronchi has it 3-4 hours.

To me that puts the latest TOD at about 9:30.

:

By your figures alone Rose, the latest TOD would have to be after 10:30, latest start of supper, 6:30 plus 4 hours, not three for the latest, and also, that would only take into account the start of the 'murder or attack' as everyone seems to agree that digestion would stop at this point, and how long did the three torment Meredith before they finally killed her, no one is sure, so TOD could well be 11:30 by your own account above.

This is one reason why so many say that you should not use stomach contents to determine TOD, too many variables.

 

[Kaosium]

How would you know?

How about:- "The Rome independent DNA experts will now either neither endorse or not nor not endorse Dr. Stefanoni's findings" and the charade then carries on to a denouement at the Supreme Court in Rome, sometime around 2014.

Would 7 years in prison for nothing for AK and RS be enough to make you happy?

BTW, where can we read (or read about) "doctor" Stephony's, er, doctorate? I can't find a single reference to anything at all in the 'peer-reviewed' scientific literature authored by her.

Here's a couple of interesting stories, I found the status of the Daily Mail's comments section to be unusual for this case, though it looks like they just opened it up to comments and the opportunity to 'select' the up/down arrows. I'm sure it will change as the ones who spent all night singing 'Rule Britannia' until the bathtub ran out of gin will have their hangovers wear off and they'll be pushing that red down arrow for any comment not negative enough about Amanda, and pushing the green one for the posts that want her strung up and left to twist in the wind.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...eives-fresh-impetus-from-forensic-review.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ufficient-convict-her.html?ito=feeds-newsxml#