General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[Mycroft]

Just for fun, when was the most recent time someone claimed that, cause I honestly don't remember hearing here. Plenty of other places, but not here.

You won't see the claim made directly, but it's certainly implied in the many arguments of the anti-Israel camp, which places all responsibility of resolving the conflict on Israel and portrays everything Palestinians do as just a response to Israeli actions.

 

[Thunder]

You won't see the claim made directly, but it's certainly implied in the many arguments of the anti-Israel camp, which places all responsibility of resolving the conflict on Israel...

oh, you mean like the folks calling for the Palestinians to accept a small territorial compromise, a large compromise in regards to the refugees, a compromise on East Jerusalem and the Old City, and to accept a demilitarized state?

huh.

 

[Virus]

oh, you mean like the folks calling for the Palestinians to accept a small territorial compromise, a large compromise in regards to the refugees, a compromise on East Jerusalem and the Old City, and to accept a demilitarized state?

huh.

They started it. Palestinians are really just Arabs from Egypt and Jordan that started a war and lost.

 

[Thunder]

They started it.

I heard this excuse a lot, at the summer camp I worked at years ago.

Palestinians are really just Arabs from Egypt and Jordan that started a war and lost.

yeah, and the Israelis are really just Jews from Europe, the USA, and the Middle East.

 

[Virus]

I heard this excuse a lot, at the summer camp I worked at years ago.



yeah, and the Israelis are really just Jews from Europe, the USA, and the Middle East.

You were complaining about all the concessions. I'm just pointing out that in the rest of the world, you don't get to start wars then demand concessions and reparations for it.

 

[Thunder]

You were complaining about all the concessions.

wrong. as usual. again.

 

[Virus]

It's funny how people have been convinced that an antisemitic, racist and Nazi movement to destroy a liberal democracy is something to be supported. That's good PR for you.

Doesn't fool me though. There's any number of comparisons you could make that show Israel's moral superiority to its enemies. Like their tolerance of religious minorities;

http://pajamasmedia.com/michaeltotten/2010/12/09/iran’s-other-war/

I guess it's like how people supported Communist Cuba because they erroneously thought it had liberal objectives.

 

[FireGarden]

what good is a billion dollar security wall, if it doesn't stop suicide bombers?

I guess this is more of your sarcasm?
It's just that when you do it all the time it gets to look less flippant and more callous.



I hope they catch whoever set the bomb. I would assume they have plenty of video cameras in that area.

 

[Giz]

You were complaining about all the concessions. I'm just pointing out that in the rest of the world, you don't get to start wars then demand concessions and reparations for it.

One of the reasons, perhaps the main reason, for a lack of peace in the middle east is that there is no incentive for the Palestinians to give up violence. No matter what attacks may be launched, the world always pressures Israel to not be too powerful in its response and never expects anything to be taken off the negotiating table. If WW2 had been fought that way, it would still be ongoing ("and the western allies continue their totally disproportionate attack into Normandy etc") and the Germans would still have various territories in Poland etc.

 

[Thunder]

It's funny how people have been convinced that an antisemitic, racist and Nazi movement to destroy a liberal democracy is something to be supported. That's good PR for you.

liberal democracy?

there are no liberal democracies in the Middle East.

 

[bikerdruid]

It's funny how people have been convinced that an antisemitic, racist and Nazi movement to destroy a liberal democracy is something to be supported. That's good PR for you.

is 'liberal democracy' your new buzz word?
you used it incorrectly this morning as well, when you applied it to the u.s.

 

[Thunder]

is 'liberal democracy' your new buzz word?
you used it incorrectly this morning as well, when you applied it to the u.s.

the United States of America is a liberal democracy.

we have a strong and long-established commitment to free speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, seperation of church & state, democratic institutions, seperation of govt. powers, etc etc.

 

[mortimer]

liberal democracy?

there are no liberal democracies in the Middle East.

Incorrect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_democracy#Liberal_democracies_around_the_world

I understand you consider yourself a liberal, so it probably pains you to see Israel termed a "liberal democracy".

 

[Thunder]

Incorrect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_democracy#Liberal_democracies_around_the_world

I understand you consider yourself a liberal, so it probably pains you to see Israel termed a "liberal democracy".

American Liberalism, and a Liberal Democracy, are very different things.

I'd expect you to know this.

 

[Cobalt]

very silly and laughable strawman.

Boy, if I had hoped you'd learned anything about that word I'd be let down by now.

And aside from that his prediction was correct.

 

[Thunder]

Boy, if I had hoped you'd learned anything about that word I'd be let down by now.

I used the word correctly. I'm sorry if you don't understand what it means.

 

[bikerdruid]

the United States of America is a liberal democracy.

we have a strong and long-established commitment to free speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, seperation of church & state, democratic institutions, seperation of govt. powers, etc etc.

many americans i have discussed with have corrected me on this.
i have been told that the u.s. is not a democracy, but is a republic.
the distinction was lost on me...but they have been rather vehement about it.

far be it for me to argue with them about their country.

 

[Cobalt]

I used the word correctly. I'm sorry if you don't understand what it means.

Pretty sure I showed a solid example that no, you don't get the meaning.

Note that I don't do it to just be a jerk or something, but to point out the fact that your arguments ARE fallacious in nature.

far be it for me to argue with them about their country.

But you have no qualms arguing about other countries eh?

 

[Thunder]

Pretty sure I showed a solid example that no, you don't get the meaning.

this is CLEARLY a strawman:

Originally Posted by angrysoba
I predict that they will say, "Aha! There's no need for the wall if it doesn't stop all bombings!" and of course, "Now maybe Israel will change its policy from existing to...er... not existing." etc... etc..

if you cannot acknowledge this, then you are either LIEING, or you actually have no idea what a strawman argument is.

 

[Virus]

the United States of America is a liberal democracy.

we have a strong and long-established commitment to free speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, seperation of church & state, democratic institutions, seperation of govt. powers, etc etc.

Israel has all those things Parky.

From Freedomhouse:

(Lower is better)

Political Rights Score: 1
Civil Liberties Score: 2
Status: Free

Palestinian Authority Administered territories:

Political Rights Score: 6
Civil Liberties Score: 6
Status: Not Free

Good enough for me.

Palestinians staked everything on a carefully fostered death cult along with Nazi/Communist patronage which they thought would lead them to victory. Several failed wars later, it hasn't. They're living with the results of that failure. The Germans and Japanese did the necessary soul searching after they were defeated and emerged as free, successful players in the global economy. The Palestinians failed to do this.