Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[el buscador]

From the following report it seems that the appointed experts in Rome couldn't find either Meredith's or Amanda's DNA on the knife. Nor could they find any of Raffaele's DNA on the bra hook because it was damaged.

Wow! What next?

http://www.tgcom.mediaset.it/cronaca/articoli/articolo1004063.shtml

 

[Danny]

From the following report it seems that the appointed experts in Rome couldn't find either Meredith's or Amanda's DNA on the knife. Nor could they find any of Raffaele's DNA on the bra hook because it was damaged.

Wow! What next?

That's extraordinary news. Is there any chance you could provide a quick and dirty English translation of the article? Thanks in advance. Edit to add - I ran it through Google translate. There are no traces of Amanda, Raffaele or Meredith on either the knife or the bra clasp.

 

[el buscador]

That's extraordinary news. Is there any chance you could provide a quick and dirty English translation of the article? Thanks in advance. Edit to add - I ran it through Google translate. There are no traces of Amanda, Raffaele or Meredith on either the knife or the bra clasp.

Meredith, "no DNA on the murder weapon"
Evidence that would fall nailed Amanda Knox
PHOTO TGCOM
17:17 - The experts of the Institute of Forensic Medicine in Rome, appointed by the Court of Appeal of Perugia, have established that the knife that was allegedly the murder weapon, there is no trace of DNA from Meredith and Amanda, as was said after a preliminary examination. Would fall and then nailed a proof that the Knox. We could not then find any trace of DNA of Sollecito on the hook of the bra because it was damaged Mez.
With these results, therefore, there may be a twist in the investigation into the murder of English girl. In the previous report, in fact, the knife was found to contain a mixture of DNA belonging to two young men. The position of Raffaele Sollecito leaves reinforced by examination of the experts Romans. Both he and Amanda are always those innocent people, and their defense argued that their DNA on the two exhibits that were examined there was over contamination.

Amanda also in the classroom
Thursday in Perugia, in the civil court and resumed the hearing to an appeal by lawyers for Amanda to ask the seizure of the film released in America "Amanda Knox Murder on trial in Italy". In this classroom will be the same student from Seattle.

The hearing may still be immediately referred for technical issues related to notifications. Lawyers Carlo Dalla Vedova and Luciano Ghirga, had sought the immediate seizure of the film, as "detrimental to the reputation."

Is scheduled for Wednesday but a new hearing of the Court of Appeal of Amanda and Raffaele.

 

[Danny]

Meredith, "no DNA on the murder weapon"
Evidence that would fall nailed Amanda Knox
PHOTO TGCOM
17:17 - The experts of the Institute of Forensic Medicine in Rome, appointed by the Court of Appeal of Perugia, have established that the knife that was allegedly the murder weapon, there is no trace of DNA from Meredith and Amanda, as was said after a preliminary examination. Would fall and then nailed a proof that the Knox. We could not then find any trace of DNA of Sollecito on the hook of the bra because it was damaged Mez.
With these results, therefore, there may be a twist in the investigation into the murder of English girl. In the previous report, in fact, the knife was found to contain a mixture of DNA belonging to two young men. The position of Raffaele Sollecito leaves reinforced by examination of the experts Romans. Both he and Amanda are always those innocent people, and their defense argued that their DNA on the two exhibits that were examined there was over contamination.

Amanda also in the classroom
Thursday in Perugia, in the civil court and resumed the hearing to an appeal by lawyers for Amanda to ask the seizure of the film released in America "Amanda Knox Murder on trial in Italy". In this classroom will be the same student from Seattle.

The hearing may still be immediately referred for technical issues related to notifications. Lawyers Carlo Dalla Vedova and Luciano Ghirga, had sought the immediate seizure of the film, as "detrimental to the reputation."

Is scheduled for Wednesday but a new hearing of the Court of Appeal of Amanda and Raffaele.

Thanks.

 

[snook1]

Meredith, "no DNA on the murder weapon"
Evidence that would fall nailed Amanda Knox
PHOTO TGCOM
17:17 - The experts of the Institute of Forensic Medicine in Rome, appointed by the Court of Appeal of Perugia, have established that the knife that was allegedly the murder weapon, there is no trace of DNA from Meredith and Amanda, as was said after a preliminary examination. Would fall and then nailed a proof that the Knox. We could not then find any trace of DNA of Sollecito on the hook of the bra because it was damaged Mez.
With these results, therefore, there may be a twist in the investigation into the murder of English girl. In the previous report, in fact, the knife was found to contain a mixture of DNA belonging to two young men. The position of Raffaele Sollecito leaves reinforced by examination of the experts Romans. Both he and Amanda are always those innocent people, and their defense argued that their DNA on the two exhibits that were examined there was over contamination.

Amanda also in the classroom
Thursday in Perugia, in the civil court and resumed the hearing to an appeal by lawyers for Amanda to ask the seizure of the film released in America "Amanda Knox Murder on trial in Italy". In this classroom will be the same student from Seattle.

The hearing may still be immediately referred for technical issues related to notifications. Lawyers Carlo Dalla Vedova and Luciano Ghirga, had sought the immediate seizure of the film, as "detrimental to the reputation."

Is scheduled for Wednesday but a new hearing of the Court of Appeal of Amanda and Raffaele.

I know it's a little to early, but...teary eyed here!!! That's indeed fantastic news! I pray that they will turn it into something even more positive in the court's hearing in May.

 

[piktor]

From the following report it seems that the appointed experts in Rome couldn't find either Meredith's or Amanda's DNA on the knife. Nor could they find any of Raffaele's DNA on the bra hook because it was damaged.

Wow! What next?
http://www.tgcom.mediaset.it/cronaca/articoli/articolo1004063.shtml

The Rome independent DNA experts will now either endorse or not endorse Dr. Stefanoni's findings.

 

[snook1]

The Rome independent DNA experts will now either endorse or not endorse Dr. Stefanoni's findings.

With the "too low" testing and 47 days after...I'm having hard times trying to imgaine how both of these could be actually regarded as believeable.

 

[Katody Matrass]

The Rome independent DNA experts will now either endorse or not endorse Dr. Stefanoni's findings.

They'll say proper testing and collection procedures were not followed, cannot exclude contamination with any reasonable confidence.

The bra clasp DNA - found in the most improbable spot in the most bizarre circumstances with all those theatrics, rubbing with dirty gloves, dropping and passing to and fro - evidence destroyed. Now that's interesting. Why wouldn't ILE want it to be retested?
That's worrying, too. I got a feeling we are yet to see a lot of nastiness on ILE's part while they cover their asses.



Yum, tasty rabbit

 

[RWVBWL]

The Rome independent DNA experts will now either endorse or not endorse Dr. Stefanoni's findings.

Hi Piktor,
I know that you are a big contributor on PMF, and so I wonder if you can answer a question that I have wondered about:

Did Dr. Stefanoni graduate from the top, the middle or the bottom of her class when she became a "Doctor"?

I ask this, since after reading Barbie Nadeau's book "Angel Face", on page 51+52 it states this:

"In another video segment that the defense team would become fond of showing in court, it appears from the position of Stefanoni's tennis bracelet that she failed to change her surgical gloves between 1 contact with evidence and the next. Publicly, the prosecutors lauded Stefanoni's work on the case. But in private, they were more critical and confided to a small group of reporters that these lapses undermined what should have been an open-and-shut case."

Now I don't know about this being an open-and-shut case,
but I do wonder how a "Doctor" can be so sloppy in her work habits? I for 1 would not want this "Doctor", with her sloppy habits, doing laser surgery to remove the Recurrent Respiratory Papillomas that always bother my vocal cords! Nor would I want her collecting evidence if 1 of my younger sisters was murdered, for she doesn't appear to realize that her gloves are dirty!!!
Heck, she might even contaminate evidence as she collected it!

It will be interesting to see how other professional Doctors and The Court view "Doctor" Stefanoni's work as the appeal process for Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito continues onward...
Hmmm,
RWVBWL

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

The Rome independent DNA experts will now either endorse or not endorse Dr. Stefanoni's findings.

Mmm. Somehow after totally failing to replicate the findings, I struggle to see how they can endorse them. It's hard to imagine a worse result for the prosecution short of them finding Mignini and Stefanoni's DNA on the knife.

It's not a terribly satisfactory ending to the DNA saga. I'd really have preferred an ending where we get to find out what happened, as opposed to the incriminating DNA vanishing like a phantom in the morning.

However my preferences have nothing to do with the reality of the situation, which is that the two solitary pieces of decent evidence remaining against Amanda and Raffaele just vanished in a puff of smoke. Curatolo's evidence is out cold on the floor too, I think, and waiting for the court to count him out is almost certainly just a formality.

I think this well and truly marks the point at which the debate over the factual innocence or guilt of Amanda and Raffaele is closed, and all that remains of interest is watching the guilters to see which of them wake up and smell the toast, and how long it takes them to smell it.

I might just break out some popcorn and see if the news has broken over at the PMFs. Watching them try to rationalise this one should be hilarious.

ETA: It looks like the official narrative is "Of course there wouldn't be any DNA left after all this time, sheesh, that goes without saying, that just means they have to take Stefanoni's word for it. Her word's good, right?".

As a matter of epistemological interest, if you want a case study of how PMFers get so incredibly deluded you can compare and contrast Stilicho's posts here with his posts over there. Stilicho's claims about what is transpiring here are so caricatured and inaccurate I am forced to choose between being seriously concerned about his mental well-being or concluding that he is engaging in deliberate deception. The PMFers who don't venture over here get their news solely from sources like Stilicho, so they have absolutely no idea what's actually going on. As a person who takes honest, rational inquiry to be a moral virtue as well as a hobby I find this sad and revolting.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

surely you jest

At PMF Jester wrote, “If they're doing tests, then some DNA must have been found. It will produce a result, as will an evaluation of the testing done for contamination in the lab. If both DNA tests are confirmed, they are both guilty. If there was a mistake on the clasp or the knife, they are still both guilty. The only path to not guilty is if both are negative; one was contaminated in the field, the other in the lab. What are the odds?

Something like this could completely derail forensic science. If DNA can fly from a cigarette butt in the kitchen to a bedroom at the end of the hall (half the time with the door locked) and settle in 45 days after the butt was removed from the scene, then DNA science should probably be re-jected as a forensic tool. That sounds particularly unscientific and unbelievable. If it is Raffaele's DNA, it did not fly off his butt. And what about the footprint? It is conceivable that the knife was contaminated in the lab, but not that the DNA is not a match to Meredith, or that the footprint belonged to Amanda or Rudy.”

I think it is worth explaining what is wrong with the above comments with respect to Raffaele’s DNA. First it confuses the items found to have Raffaele’s DNA at the flat (the cigarette butt) with all items that have his DNA in the flat. We know he came into contact with Meredith’s door, and we have good reason to suspect he used towels there, for example. Second, it ignores the real potential for contamination in the lab. Third, it ignores the possibility of evidence-tampering. Fourth, discussions about rejecting DNA as a forensic tool are overblown. This case does point to some limitations in forensic DNA, but those limitations were known (if not always highlighted) before the present case.

As I have previously indicated, trying to wave away the DNA results with “what are the odds of both being wrong” is a questionable argument. For one thing it ignores confirmation bias. For another, it mistakes finding the DNA with finding meaning in the DNA. The issue is not whether Meredith’s DNA is on the knife (the weakness of the profile and that it is low template are separate matters), the issue is how and when it got there. Also, I am skeptical of the “if one is guilty, then both are guilty” line of argument from a legal perspective, but maybe someone else can comment on that.

 

[Draca]

ETA: It looks like the official narrative is "Of course there wouldn't be any DNA left after all this time, sheesh, that goes without saying, that just means they have to take Stefanoni's word for it. Her word's good, right?".

She is after all the one of the TOP FORENSIC EXPERTS in the whole wide world! Of course her word is gold.

Although..... I find the gift wrapping of the mop and leaving Meredith Kercher's clothing behind on the floor a bit perplexing. She's the expert though... there must be a very experty reason for doing these things.

And there was also that with holding of known evidence thingy.....

 

[Justinian2]

The experts of the Institute of Forensic Medicine in Rome, appointed by the Court of Appeal of Perugia, have established that [on] the knife that was allegedly the murder weapon, there is no trace of [the] DNA of [either] Meredith and Amanda, as was said after a preliminary examination. [Would fall and then nailed a proof that the Knox.] It was not then possible to find traces of Sollecito's DNA on the bra hook [Mez] because it was damaged.

With these results, therefore, there may be a twist in the investigation into the murder of English girl. In the previous report, in fact, the knife was found to contain a mixture of DNA belonging to two young men [women?]. The position of Raffaele Sollecito leaves reinforced by examination of the experts Romans. Both he and Amanda are always those innocent people, and their defense argued that their DNA on the two exhibits that were examined there was over contamination.

Amanda also in the classroom Thursday to Perugia, in the civil court and resumed the hearing to an appeal by lawyers for Amanda to ask the seizure of the film released in America “Amanda Knox Murder on trial in Italy”. In this classroom will be the same student from Seattle.

The hearing may still be immediately referred for technical issues related to notifications. Lawyers Carlo Dalla Vedova and Luciano Ghirga, had sought the immediate seizure of the film, as detrimental to the reputation.

Is scheduled for Wednesday but a new hearing of the Court of Appeal of Amanda and Raffaele.

Great news! But what's the real translation?

 

[Justinian2]

[...] The issue is not whether Meredith’s DNA is on the knife (the weakness of the profile and that it is low template are separate matters), the issue is how and when it got there. [...]QUOTE]

The thirty pico-grams of DNA found (whether on the knife or contaminated lab equipment) is equivalent to three molecules of DNA. Did that get there from the knife or from the lab which reproduces each strand of DNA by 2^28 (300 million times)? If I were a gambling man, I would say that the odds are that the DNA came from the lab and the days of testing Meredith's tissues before the knife was tested.

It's possible that there were a billion strands of Meredith's DNA on the doctor's dirty gloves.

Perhaps this leaves the door open for the judge to rule for the innocence of Amanda and Raffaele.

 

[Alt+F4]

He has assets NOT capital worth c. €2M, which is locked in escrow anyway.

Evidence?

 

[Alt+F4]

Of course her word is gold.

How would you know? You have no idea what she said in her actual testimony in court. You know nothing except what has been filtered and feed to you via the Internet.

 

[Justinian2]

Furthermore, there's no evidence that the 'noise' on the bottom of line of the instrument even indicated Meredith's DNA as there were likely to be missing peaks and false peaks in so small a sample done in this bizzare way.

Or as Mark Waterbury writes: "The Stefanoni NT-DNA profile was performed with a unique, irreproducible, untested, un-vetted, never peer-reviewed technique that was made up, on-the-fly by an overzealous investigator."

 

[Chris_Halkides]

the knife profile was not up to scratch

Furthermore, there's no evidence that the 'noise' on the bottom of line of the instrument even indicated Meredith's DNA as there were likely to be missing peaks and false peaks in so small a sample done in this bizzare way.

Or as Mark Waterbury writes: "The Stefanoni NT-DNA profile was performed with a unique, irreproducible, untested, un-vetted, never peer-reviewed technique that was made up, on-the-fly by an overzealous investigator."

Justinian2,

The use of an untested technique, the fact that (unlike typical LCN work) the work cannot be reproduced, and the fact that 22 out of 29 peaks fell below 50 RFU in height are all good reasons to exclude the profile in a legal setting. I also believe that contamination within the laboratory is as or more likely than any other explanation for the profile.

 

[Alt+F4]

I think this well and truly marks the point at which the debate over the factual innocence or guilt of Amanda and Raffaele is closed...

89 witnesses testified in this murder trial and you have read the verbatim testimony of only one.

The debate is not closed. You think you know the evidence, you know nothing of it at all. You don't speak Italian, so even if you did have access to the trial transcript (which you don't) you would have no idea what 90% of it even says. You are not an expert in any of the scientific fields or legal systems pertinent to this case.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Evidence?

How would you know? You have no idea what she said in her actual testimony in court. You know nothing except what has been filtered and feed to you via the Internet.

89 witnesses testified in this murder trial and you have read the verbatim testimony of only one.

The debate is not closed. You think you know the evidence, you know nothing of it at all. You don't speak Italian, so even if you did have access to the trial transcript (which you don't) you would have no idea what 90% of it even says. You are not an expert in any of the scientific fields or legal systems pertinent to this case.

I must have missed the post where you explain how you justify your own opinion about the case, which differs from that of the court.