General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[mortimer]

its also disgusting & pathetic for the Knesset to refuse to recognize the Armenian Genocide. ands its disgusting & pathetic to even consider criminalizing peacefully honoring the Nakba during Israeli Independence Day.

So just to be clear, you find it disgusting and pathetic that Hamas refuses to teach the Holocaust to it's children?

 

[Thunder]

So just to be clear, you find it disgusting and pathetic that Hamas refuses to teach the Holocaust to it's children?

I think all children above a certain age should be taught about episodes of genocide & ethnic cleansing, including the Holocaust.

But it is highly hypocritical for Palestinian children to be taught about the great suffering of the Jewish people, while the Israeli govt. refuses to recognize the suffering of the Palestinian people & their partial responsibility for it, let alone possibly passing a law making it ILLEGAL to peacefully honor the memory of the Nakba during Israeli Independence Day.

I think Hamas should follow this logic, and point out how very hypocritical Israel is.

 

[IDB87]

But it is highly hypocritical for Palestinian children to be taught about the great suffering of the Jewish people, while the Israeli govt. refuses to recognize the suffering of the Palestinian people & their partial responsibility for it, let alone possibly passing a law making it ILLEGAL to peacefully honor the memory of the Nakba during Israeli Independence Day.

No, those are two separate issues. Do you have any evidence Israel thinks the Armenian genocide is a lie and refuses to teach it to their children? What about the Nakba - is that not taught in Israeli schools?

Here's something interesting

I think Hamas should follow this logic, and point out how very hypocritical Israel is.

Does Israel say the Nakba/Armenian genocide are lies that never happened?

 

[Thunder]

No, those are two separate issues. Do you have any evidence Israel thinks the Armenian genocide is a lie and refuses to teach it to their children? What about the Nakba - is that not taught in Israeli schools?

Here's something interesting

Does Israel say the Nakba/Armenian genocide are lies that never happened?

It is a fact that the Israeli Knesset has yet to officialy acknowledge the Armenian Genocide. It is a fact that the Israeli Knesset is considering a law to make it illegal to peacefully honor the Nakba during Israel Independence Day.

I have NO idea if ALL Israeli students learn about the Armenian, Bosnian, or Rwandan genocides or the exile of 750,000 Palestinians in 1948. But they certainly should.

 

[IDB87]

It is a fact that the Israeli Knesset has yet to officialy acknowledge the Armenian Genocide.

The state of Israel does not officially recognize the Armenian Genocide, despite the fact that the Jews themselves were victims of a similiar genocide for which Adolf Hitler himself used the Armenian massacres as an example. Many righteous Jews detest this stance, and a number of prominent politicians, historians and the Ashkenazi Chief Rabbi Yona Metzger publicly speak of the Armenian Genocide. Turkey has not only warned Israel of cutting off ties if it recognizes the killings as genocide, but also said that ties would be harmed if the United States recognizes it as genocide.[1] When an American Jewish group, the Anti-Defamation League, recognized the killings of Armenians as "tantamount to genocide", prompting Turkish protests against the State of Israel.

Pretty interesting to consider the ramifications of ones' actions. But then I don't expect Thunder (or really myself for that matter) to understand the art of state craft all too well.

It is a fact that the Israeli Knesset is considering a law to make it illegal to peacefully honor the Nakba during Israel Independence Day.

Would like a source for this, if you will.

I have NO idea if Israeli students learn about the Armenian, Bosnian, or Rwandan genocides or the exile of 750,000 Palestinians in 1948.

I just gave you a link about the Israel Education Ministry incorporating the Nakba into Israeli curriculum. Do you not read links that people provide you?

*ETA

None of this matters, at any rate, since Hamas says the reason they won't teach the Holocaust is because it's a Zionist lie.

What say you about that, Thunder?

 

[Thunder]

Would like a source for this, if you will.

wow, you really are not up-to-date with Israeli politics are you?

http://www.haaretz.com/news/israel-moves-closer-to-banning-mourning-of-its-independence-1.267175

I just gave you a link about the Israel Education Ministry incorporating the Nakba into Israeli curriculum. Do you not read links that people provide you?

no, you provided a link about the Nakba being taught to ARAB students.

You don't read the articles you link to, do ya?

 

[IDB87]

wow, you really are not up-to-date with Israeli politics are you?

http://www.haaretz.com/news/israel-m...dence-1.267175

*ETA

Two years ago. Do you have any kind of updates to this pending legislation?

no, you provided a link abou the Nakba being taught to ARAB students.

Arab Israeli students, yes.

Or are the Arabs who live in Israel not Israeli citizens?

*ETA

None of this matters, at any rate, since Hamas says the reason they won't teach the Holocaust is because it's a Zionist lie.

What say you about that, Thunder?

 

[Mycroft]

Except you ignore what Solana said would be necessary to end the occupation.

Ignore it? Hardly, it’s the entirety of your argument. He makes claims without laying any legal foundation for them and the only authority he speaks from is that he’s a politician who once held political office. I don’t ignore what he said, I disagree with it, and this entire exchange has been about why.

You ignore the evidence that Israel still retains control in and over Gaza, thus matching the definition of 'occupation' in the Hague convention. It does not say 'absolute authority' it does not say 'control of every aspect of government'.

No, again I don’t ignore it, I disagree that the things you list add up to “control.” I don’t claim that Israel would need to control every aspect of Gaza government for Gaza to be “occupied”, but the reverse claim, that if Israel controls any aspect of Gaza government then it’s still an “occupier” is also patently false.

You gave some examples yourself of what a government does and Israel does some of those things for Gaza -- like issuing permits. It is responsible for water and electricity, but you pretend that is nothing to do with government. It collects taxes on imports and decides whether to pass those taxes on to the PA/Hamas, but you don't even comment on that.

Water and electricity are provided as per prior agreements between Israel and Palestinians, and I don’t know about where you live, but where I live utilities are the function of private companies.

Taxes on imports? I don’t know about those, but Israel has been responsible for collecting Palestinian sales taxes from the beginning, as per their agreement with Arafat (which is how Arafat got so rich. He insisted the funds go directly to him and he would then distribute them. )

Anyway, congratulations on finding a lawyer who agrees with you. At least until he responds to the first comment, after which he seems less sure.

<snip>

But, apparently, this doesn't apply to Israel and Gaza because Israel "can’t reestablish its control over Gaza with ease". Because that's how America re-took Fallujah: with ease?

I’m not aware of anyone making an issue of the US occupying Fallujah during the time when they had to re-take it from insurgents. It’s clear to me the operation was to re-occupy the city from its new occupiers.

Which is along the lines of one of the arguements dismissed by your source earlier in his article. I'll take Solana's word as being more authoritative.

Of course you do, because he starts with the opinion you want.

But let’s be honest. If you took a knock to the head resulting in temporary amnesia and woke up with no memory of any of your own political opinions and not even remembering who the Israelis and Palestinians are and had to make a snap judgment in order to save your own life, would you trust:

1) The guy who’s politics are hard-core socialist, who’s educational background is in physics and who went on to a career in politics,

or…

2) The international attorney who was trained in international humanitarian law who’s argued cases before the International Criminal Court and who is to all appearances politically neutral?

The choice seems pretty easy to me.

And that the Israeli government is aware that the arguments come from everybody, not just an online reference and travel advisory.

If “everyone” is defined as the anti-Israel echo-chamber, then yes. Finding actual governments issuing policy statements to the effect is much more difficult. If it were easy, you’d be quoting them instead of travel advisories and reference tools.

 

[Thunder]

None of this matters, at any rate, since Hamas says the reason they won't teach the Holocaust is because it's a Zionist lie.[/I]

What say you about that, Thunder?

funny, the article posted says no such thing.

however, I think its horrific that the Israeli Jews and the Palestinian Muslims are sooooo full of hatred that they simply cannot bare the idea of acknowledging the pain that the other community has suffered.

Israeli Jews refuse to acknowledge the Nakba and Palestinians refuse to teach or even acknowledge the Holocaust. Such is the pathetic state of affairs in the Holy Land.

 

[Skeptic]

Funny how the same folks who constantly insist they are "not antisemites, just anti-zionists" do conflate "Jew" with "Israeli" (as in thinking it's fine not to teach the Jewish holocaust because of things Israelies do) when they are trying to find some excuse to explain away Hamas' mass holocaust denial.

 

[Thunder]

Funny how the same folks who constantly insist they are "not antisemites, just anti-zionists" do conflate "Jew" with "Israeli".....

the irony is as thick as tar.

if I had a nickle for every time a Neo-Zionist said something like "but Israel is full of Jews" or "its ok cause country X is not Jewish", I'd be a rich Litvak.

 

[Virus]

funny, the article posted says no such thing.

Doesn't mean it isn't true.

 

[Thunder]

Doesn't mean it isn't true.

Hamas believes the Holocaust is a hoax?

Prove it.

either way, if Israeli Jews can deny the Nakba....

 

[Virus]

Justifying Nazi propaganda and Holocaust denial to get back at Israel.

That's a new low.

 

[Thunder]

Justifying Nazi propaganda and Holocaust denial to get back at Israel.

That's a new low.

got any evidence that Hamas believes the Holocaust is a myth?

2nd request.

 

[Virus]

got any evidence that Hamas believes the Holocaust is a myth?

2nd request.

OMG you've been throwing yourself into the fray of anti-Israel discussions and you didn't even know about the Nazi curriculum of Palestinian schools.

Classic.

 

[Skeptic]

None of this matters, at any rate, since Hamas says the reason they won't teach the Holocaust is because it's a Zionist lie. [/I]What say you about that, Thunder?

Well?

 

[Skeptic]

OMG you've been throwing yourself into the fray of anti-Israel discussions and you didn't even know about the Nazi curriculum of Palestinian schools.

He's never been to Israel, or Palestine, or the Middle East, for that matter, either, FYI, so not knowing about this particular issue is hardly surprising.

 

[Thunder]

OMG you've been throwing yourself into the fray of anti-Israel discussions and you didn't even know about the Nazi curriculum of Palestinian schools.

wait, so they deny the Holocaust, but they teach Nazi curriculum?

please....make up your mind and make some sense.

...got any evidence that Hamas believes the Holocaust is a myth?

3rd request.

 

[Thunder]

He's never been to Israel, or Palestine, or the Middle East, for that matter, either, FYI, so not knowing about this particular issue is hardly surprising.

And you have been to all the countries that you comment on? Libya, Iran, Iraq, etc etc?

please...