Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

[NavyPack]

Sorry, posting from my phone, must be a size restriction.

 

[Akhenaten]

I see no contradiction with Jesus' words on the cross. "No" Gospel writer said Jesus' last words were:______

Skeptics have to assume something to make their argument, so if skeptics can assume things, I've included a link below that makes an assumption or two.

DOC, you seem, as usual, to be missing the whole point here.

Firstly, your oft repeated mantra, while it may be some comfort to you, most certainly does not have the power to make the contradictions/discrepancies that are evident in the gospels simply vanish.

Secondly, no assumptions are necessary. We are able to point out passages in your own book where either different accounts of the same story are being presented or completely different stories are being told.

For you to keep saying that you can't see that this is the case speaks only to your own wilful ignorance, and completely fails to address the issue of NT truthiness one way or the other.

John says "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said "It is finished:" and bowed his head and gave up the ghost". Nowhere does John say Jesus' last words were "It is finished". He didn't say how long Jesus' head was bowed, it might have been bowed for 15 minutes before he died as far as we know. Let's say it was bowed 5 minutes; you can say a lot in 5 minutes but John didn't report it, or maybe his attention was diverted momentarily to something a criminal or a guard said; or he was busy trying to comfort the woman who were with him who might have been crying.

DOC, if they ever have an international competition with a million dollar prize for the worst ever explanation for John 19:30, I'm going to plagiarise this nonsense and make it my entry. It can't fail.

But for aguments sake let's say John did hear Jesus say: Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit. He might have simply conveyed those words to us by saying "and {he} gave up the ghost". The wording "gave up" implies a conscious deliberate action. This correlates with Jesus saying "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit" which is a conscious deliberate action. So as mentioned, John was simply conveying this wording of Jesus to us by saying "and gave up the ghost".

The ending of Life of Brian is 47,000 times more credible than this dreck.

On a different note this wording tells us that Jesus' spirit never did die on the cross because he was giving it to God (the father), only his body died (which was then resurrected later).

I can't even stop laughing long enough to write a proper refutation. I hope Lothian manages better.

This link has another explanation:

Scroll down about 3/4 of the way to the question: Do the Gospels Disagree on Jesus' Last Words on the Cross?

http://contenderministries.org/discrepancies/contradictions.php#17

DOC, how can you expect to be taken seriously when you can't even be bothered to properly present your own case?

This is almost as pathetic as your oblique references to stuff that we might be able to read on our vacation in the US.

ETA So I have still never seen an alleged NT contradiction that can't logically be explained.

What you claim to have seen or not seen is irrelevant, DOC. The contradictions have been posted here where everyone else can see them, as well as your abject failure to address them.

But even if I did see a minor contradiction that couldn't be explained that wouldn't mean Jesus was never resurrected or didn't do the things mentioned during his ministry. Nowhere does Jesus say after I go to heaven there will be a New Testament written by my followers consisting of 4 independent gospels and those 4 independent gospels will be perfectly consistent in every minute detail.

lolwut???​

 

[Lothian]

I see no contradiction with Jesus' words on the cross. "No" Gospel writer said Jesus' last words were:______

Skeptics have to assume something to make their argument, so if skeptics can assume things, I've included a link below that makes an assumption or two.

John says "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said "It is finished:" and bowed his head and gave up the ghost". Nowhere does John say Jesus' last words were "It is finished". He didn't say how long Jesus' head was bowed, it might have been bowed for 15 minutes before he died as far as we know. Let's say it was bowed 5 minutes; you can say a lot in 5 minutes but John didn't report it, or maybe his attention was diverted momentarily to something a criminal or a guard said; or he was busy trying to comfort the woman who were with him who might have been crying.

But for aguments sake let's say John did hear Jesus say: Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit. He might have simply conveyed those words to us by saying "and {he} gave up the ghost". The wording "gave up" implies a conscious deliberate action. This correlates with Jesus saying "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit" which is a conscious deliberate action. So as mentioned, John was simply conveying this wording of Jesus to us by saying "and gave up the ghost".

On a different note this wording tells us that Jesus' spirit never did die on the cross because he was giving it to God (the father), only his body died (which was then resurrected later).

This link has another explanation:

Scroll down about 3/4 of the way to the question: Do the Gospels Disagree on Jesus' Last Words on the Cross?

http://contenderministries.org/discrepancies/contradictions.php#17


ETA So I have still never seen an alleged NT contradiction that can't logically be explained.

So you don't know. Your version contradicts that in the link. We do have three contradictory accounts and the logical answer is that two or more are wrong. Your elaborate distortions of words beyond their normal meaning are not logical.

But even if I did see a minor contradiction that couldn't be explained that wouldn't mean Jesus was never resurrected or didn't do the things mentioned during his ministry. Nowhere does Jesus say after I go to heaven there will be a New Testament written by my followers consisting of 4 independent gospels and those 4 independent gospels will be perfectly consistent in every minute detail.

DOC, I agree with you totally. The New Testament accounts consist of a number of stories. Whether any particular story in a gospel is true or false has no influence on the veracity of other stories. You are right, whether or not there are contradicting accounts of Jesus' last words it tells us nothing about whether he was resurrected. Similarly

The New Testament Writers Including Embarrassing Details About Themselves tells us nothing about whether he was resurrected

The New Testament Writers Including Embarrassing Details and Difficult Sayings of Jesus tells us nothing about whether he was resurrected.

The NT Writers Leaving in Very Demanding Sayings of Jesus tells us nothing about whether he was resurrected.

The New Testament Writers Describing Miracles Like Other Historical Events: With Simple, Unembellished Accounts tells us nothing about whether he was resurrected.

Each and every miracle needs supporting evidence outside the bible. Ramsay made clear that no such evidence exists and the only way it can be accepted is through faith. Thank Aten, you are starting to seeing the light.

 

[joobz]

But even if I did see a minor contradiction that couldn't be explained that wouldn't mean Jesus was never resurrected or didn't do the things mentioned during his ministry. Nowhere does Jesus say after I go to heaven there will be a New Testament written by my followers consisting of 4 independent gospels and those 4 independent gospels will be perfectly consistent in every minute detail.

well, this ends the thread. You've just made our argument for us. thanks, Lothian, for pointly it out so clearly.

 

[Mojo]

Ramsay made clear...

That's Sir Ramsay!

 

[Lothian]

That's Sir Ramsay!

I think you mean Sir William.

 

[kmortis]

Ramsay made clear...

That's Sir Ramsay!

...noted Biblical scholar.

 

[Filippo Lippi]

I think you mean Sir William.

His name is immaterial*, it's how easy he is to misquote that matters






*be my guest

 

[Mojo]

I think you mean Sir William.

Nope:

Huh? we're talking Sir Ramsay and archaeology?

 

[Lothian]

Nope:

How silly of me to forget

 

[joobz]

...noted Biblical scholar.

and maker of fine Prophylactics.

 

[RoboTimbo]

and maker of fine Prophylactics.

That would be Sheik Ramsay.

 

[genemc]

Welcome to the forum (and to the thread that never ends)!

Hope you like it here. Any subject that interest you in particular?

New and interesting ideas in general. In particular how so many intelligent people are able to accept such ill-founded ideas in their religious beliefs, and
how this might relate to the acceptance of illogical ideas outside of religion.
Thanks for the words of welcome.

 

[Damien Evans]

476 pages of wrong and counting.

 

[Rincewind]

New and interesting ideas in general. In particular how so many intelligent people are able to accept such ill-founded ideas in their religious beliefs, and
how this might relate to the acceptance of illogical ideas outside of religion.
Thanks for the words of welcome.

And welcome from me too!

Now depending on how much of this thread you're actually read, we have:

Alcohol & drugs over there on the long table,
Padded Cells through that doorway on the left,
Straitjackets under the counter to the right.

If you think it's causing your brains to leak out of your ears... well that's normal.

For nervous breakdowns, fill out the forms in triplicate then eat them - there's a 25,000 post minimum in the thread required to qualify.

Seriously - for a brief minute - There are some awesome posters here, and I have learnt a huge amount. I started with this thread rather naively thinking that some "real" evidence was imminent, but sadly... At least DOC has played a major part in my ascent/descent to Atheism, so even he deserves some thanks!

Therefore - pull up a chair, open the popcorn and remember never, ever, drink beverages while reading posts from - well I'm sure you'll soon have a list of genuine LOL posters, as I have!

Oh - and chip in whenever the muse takes you!

 

[amb]

I see no contradiction with Jesus' words on the cross. "No" Gospel writer said Jesus' last words were:______

Skeptics have to assume something to make their argument, so if skeptics can assume things, I've included a link below that makes an assumption or two.

John says "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said "It is finished:" and bowed his head and gave up the ghost". Nowhere does John say Jesus' last words were "It is finished". He didn't say how long Jesus' head was bowed, it might have been bowed for 15 minutes before he died as far as we know. Let's say it was bowed 5 minutes; you can say a lot in 5 minutes but John didn't report it, or maybe his attention was diverted momentarily to something a criminal or a guard said; or he was busy trying to comfort the woman who were with him who might have been crying.

But for aguments sake let's say John did hear Jesus say: Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit. He might have simply conveyed those words to us by saying "and {he} gave up the ghost". The wording "gave up" implies a conscious deliberate action. This correlates with Jesus saying "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit" which is a conscious deliberate action. So as mentioned, John was simply conveying this wording of Jesus to us by saying "and gave up the ghost".

On a different note this wording tells us that Jesus' spirit never did die on the cross because he was giving it to God (the father), only his body died (which was then resurrected later).

This link has another explanation:

Scroll down about 3/4 of the way to the question: Do the Gospels Disagree on Jesus' Last Words on the Cross?

http://contenderministries.org/discrepancies/contradictions.php#17


ETA So I have still never seen an alleged NT contradiction that can't logically be explained.

But even if I did see a minor contradiction that couldn't be explained that wouldn't mean Jesus was never resurrected or didn't do the things mentioned during his ministry. Nowhere does Jesus say after I go to heaven there will be a New Testament written by my followers consisting of 4 independent gospels and those 4 independent gospels will be perfectly consistent in every minute detail.

DOC, for christ sake. There was no one there to record what Jeebus said as his last words. The tale is a christian invention to show the skeptics that this was no ordinary man. All his apostles fled at Jeebuses arrest, therefore there was no one there to record anything he may have said either at his trial or crucifixion. It is written that some of his followers and his mother were watching the proceedings from safe distance, in no way close enough to hear what was said.
He may have called out to Cephas to tell him that he could see his house from up there on the cross for all we know.

 

[Mojo]

All his apostles fled at Jeebuses arrest, therefore there was no one there to record anything he may have said either at his trial or crucifixion.

Ah, but you only have the word of the New Testament writers for this. It might not be true.

 

[amb]

But, but, but. They only wrote the truth didn't they?

 

[joobz]

But, but, but. They only wrote the truth didn't they?

And how do you we know they wrote the truth?

Well, because they agreed with each other in some parts (expected if it was true) and disagreed with each other in other parts (expected if it was true).

Therefore true!

 

[pizzadeliveryninja]

I see no contradiction with Jesus' words on the cross. "No" Gospel writer said Jesus' last words were:______

Skeptics have to assume something to make their argument, so if skeptics can assume things, I've included a link below that makes an assumption or two.

John says "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said "It is finished:" and bowed his head and gave up the ghost". Nowhere does John say Jesus' last words were "It is finished". He didn't say how long Jesus' head was bowed, it might have been bowed for 15 minutes before he died as far as we know. Let's say it was bowed 5 minutes; you can say a lot in 5 minutes but John didn't report it, or maybe his attention was diverted momentarily to something a criminal or a guard said; or he was busy trying to comfort the woman who were with him who might have been crying.

In which case, I would perfectly justified in saying that Jesus also said "Rock Over London, Rock on Chicago. Blockbuster Video, what a difference!" and no one would be able to contradict it?

What evidence do you have that the author of the gospel that has been ascribed to John was there to record the words? Why do you think he was incapable of multi-tasking but able to record details of events that happened when he wasn't there?

Why would he record some words of Jesus before he died but not his final ones yet suggest that they were the last? And why did he record different ones from the other authors of the gospels? If they were all apostles - as you are appear to believe - why didn't they discuss it afterwards? Why did they end up with different words?