I long ago gave up trying to convince anyone that there is verifiable evidence. Perhaps there are some readers who agree that further exploration is merited. That is a personal choice each person makes for himself. Pixy, you are free to reject everything until someone can provide irrefutable proof. I and others will continue to pursue exploration and evolution rather than remain tied to an ongoing limiting reality based on the "known" physical universe. I don't mean to imply that there is anything wrong with rejecting the possibility. We just have reached different conclusions based on our respective experiences.
Monroe Institute
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Marcus
Illuminator
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Here's the problem. For many, many, years we have been treated to anecdotal reports of OBE's and ADE's. Sure, they looked intriguing 100 years ago, but if it was real, we would have evidence by now. Anyone can write anything in a book, it simply doesn't qualify as evidence. If someone tells me about their OBE, I don't think they are lying. They really believe they were out of body. However, all the evidence points to their experience taking place entirely within their brain.
PixyMisa
Persnickety Insect
You might have more success if you'd actually presented some.
I'm not asking for proof. I'm asking for evidence. Not stories. Evidence.
That is the silliest thing you could possibly do.
And yet...
No. We've reached conclusions based on the evidence. You've decided to believe regardless of the evidence.
You might try it the other way round and ask yourself how is it that we find ourselves in the state of not having an OBE. I mean during the regular working hours. What sort of thing is this that is overwhelmingly located and fixed to this body and why?
Shouldn't the number of cases of death/sleeping/unconsciousness that do not produce an OBE overbear the number that do? It would be an easier experiment to run -- the number of subjects seems vastly greater. And I think some understanding of why I seem to be conscious and located in this body is an interesting question all by itself.
Shouldn't the number of cases of death/sleeping/unconsciousness that do not produce an OBE overbear the number that do? It would be an easier experiment to run -- the number of subjects seems vastly greater. And I think some understanding of why I seem to be conscious and located in this body is an interesting question all by itself.
I think the original intent of this thread was soliciting thoughts on the Monroe Institute. In my initial posting I mentioned that I would be going to the institute and was willing to share my take on the experience. Most participants either have already concluded there is no broader reality or have concluded that the strength of the evidence isn't sufficient to warrant more interest in exploring the possibilities. Consequently, sharing my experiences isn't likely to stimulate the type of conversation I'm really interested in (if there is a broader reality, what are the implications).
PixyMisa
Persnickety Insect
Sharing your experiences may well be helfpful. Your experiences; not things you've read about, not stories other people have told you, not interpretations constructed after the fact. If you are willing to approach the matter skeptically, to recognise the falliblity of your senses and cognitive abilities, that just because you thought you saw something doesn't mean that there was anything there to see, much less that it was what you first thought.
Stories, though, are simply worthless.
Stories, though, are simply worthless.
I think the journey I'm on may not be successful if I maintain a skepitcal attitude. The achievement of an OBE, for example, seems to require a willingness to "go with the flow", so to speak. This is what the experienced OBErs say. For people like me who haven't spontaneously experienced an OBE, focusing your intent on having an OBE and believing it can be achieved seeim to be prerequisites to a successful OBE. Also, even if I am able to achieve an OBE, will I be able to contain my excitement to notice verifiable things abotu me that prove that it isn't a dream? Only time will tell, I guess.
I think you are right. Self-deception is harder when you are skeptical. But a number of skeptics have experienced OBE's for themselves, so it is not impossible. However, skeptics would just enjoy the experience rather than think it represents the physical reality.
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It may be that if/when I actually experience an OBE I'll come to the conclusion that it was just an interesting experience that doesn't represent a broader reality. However, I may also conclude, like many other OBE experiencers (perhaps most) that this really is more than just a brain produced awareness. Calling it self deception implies we know what the outcome will be in advance.
Here's an interesting web site I visited this week - www.reconciliationlife.com. A friend who attended a Monroe Institute program on healing last week met a neurologist there who had had an NDE. She know of my interest in NDEs and, in particular, what people in the medical community have to say about it. This isn't offered as proof of anything but the commentary does come from a person with a wealth of experience working with the human brain.
Here's an interesting web site I visited this week - www.reconciliationlife.com. A friend who attended a Monroe Institute program on healing last week met a neurologist there who had had an NDE. She know of my interest in NDEs and, in particular, what people in the medical community have to say about it. This isn't offered as proof of anything but the commentary does come from a person with a wealth of experience working with the human brain.
I think one cool thing is the ability to abandon a worldview based on materialism more easily than abandoning a worldview that includes the mystical. What status does the second have that trumps the first? Is it just more interesting?
Most people probably want to believe there is something more than a one lifetime existence in a material world. World religions feed that desire. Unfortunately, most religions require adherance to a set of beliefs and dogmas that are more about control than advancing spiritual freedom.
jfish, I am doing something similar to you. I am approaching this skeptically, but with a feeling there is more to it than merely self deception.
I refuse to believe anything until I've experienced it first hand and even then, I am not going to take anything from it until I've experienced something that proves beyond reasonable doubt that I could not possibly have seen/known this in the physical world.
I am trying to gain more control over the lucid dream state instead as well as trying to induce an OBE. I have a friend that has recently moved to another city and I have not visited his apartment (or said city). My intention is to try and do this, although I realise it will be extremely difficult.
If I was able to experience something that I could not have previously known, or very unlikely have predicted then I think that would prove to me beyond reasonable doubt.
However, there is the odd possibility that I could gauge what his apartment would look like inside from inside or something going on there from just knowing him as a person and some kind of advanced intuition. Regardless, this wont be easy and I am still unable to gain enough control over the lucid dream state or induce an OBE at will, but it's an enjoyable practice.
I refuse to believe anything until I've experienced it first hand and even then, I am not going to take anything from it until I've experienced something that proves beyond reasonable doubt that I could not possibly have seen/known this in the physical world.
I am trying to gain more control over the lucid dream state instead as well as trying to induce an OBE. I have a friend that has recently moved to another city and I have not visited his apartment (or said city). My intention is to try and do this, although I realise it will be extremely difficult.
If I was able to experience something that I could not have previously known, or very unlikely have predicted then I think that would prove to me beyond reasonable doubt.
However, there is the odd possibility that I could gauge what his apartment would look like inside from inside or something going on there from just knowing him as a person and some kind of advanced intuition. Regardless, this wont be easy and I am still unable to gain enough control over the lucid dream state or induce an OBE at will, but it's an enjoyable practice.
Very commendable, but could you please explain why first-hand experience is so important for you? I think it is unlikely that you really only believe in things that you experience first hand, and I hope that even if you do experience stuff first hand, you will not necessarily believe it if you think you can find no natural explanation. If for instance, you watch a conjurer perform a brilliant magic trick: you experience it first hand, and you cannot come up with a natural explanation. In this case, the only reason why you - presumably - do not believe it, is that you already know that it is a magic trick.
The reason why science tries to remove first-hand experience from the investigation is that it is known to be unreliable, and the scientific method employs careful controls to ensure as far as possible that we do not get fooled by tricks or our own ignorance. I really cannot see why first-hand experience and failure to find a natural explanation would be a reason to rationally believe in anything. Careful elimination of confounding factors would, on the other hand, be a reason for belief.
My first step in this process is to achieve an OBE. Once I know I can get to that state, I'll consider what kind of control I can exert to obtain proof. I recall one of Robert Monroe's experiences he shared in his book. He visited his ill friend in another town and was surprised when he didn't find him in his bedroom. Instead he located his friend outside with his wife. When Monroe later called his friend about this, the friend confirmed that he had gone outside at the time of the OBE. Apparently, he was getting bored lying in bed and decided to get up and go outside for some fresh air. The timing of the OBE visit and his friend's walk outside coincided with one another, according to Monroe.
One problem I see is that anyone can call this a "story". TheBigM, if you or I were to experience something similar, it may be abundantly clear to us individually that this is proof but that won't mean others will accept this as anything more than a story. Which takes me back to one of my main points - each person has to make his own judgement as to what constitutes proof for himself as an individual. While experienced OBErs think they have all the proof they need, for some reason they don't submit themselves to a rigorous examination by outside individuals. Perhaps if/when I've had an OBE, I'll better understand why that is the case.
One problem I see is that anyone can call this a "story". TheBigM, if you or I were to experience something similar, it may be abundantly clear to us individually that this is proof but that won't mean others will accept this as anything more than a story. Which takes me back to one of my main points - each person has to make his own judgement as to what constitutes proof for himself as an individual. While experienced OBErs think they have all the proof they need, for some reason they don't submit themselves to a rigorous examination by outside individuals. Perhaps if/when I've had an OBE, I'll better understand why that is the case.
It is certainly evidence that people tend to experience the same thing in the same circumstances. Why would it be "proof" of anything else?
Are you talking about rational proof, or just an emotional proof - "gut feeling"?
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I am talking purely of a parapsychological or metaphysical experience of which there is a lack of scientific data and masses of contradictory beliefs (possibly due to this). Specifically trying to induce and OBE here and prove that it's not just a dream.
If I was able to verify something to myself, which to me proved beyond reasonable doubt that an OBE takes place not only inside the imagination of the person experiencing it.
What careful controls would you suggest adding to remove first hand experience? I mean the whole event takes place in first hand experience.
My thoughts are to try and project to a place I have never been and attempt to verify it. Then following that, try something a bit more complex.
Jfish – I found Monroe’s accounts fascinating. But like you said, until they are experienced firsthand they can be dismissed as stories and as you said, if you experience something similar it could also be dismissed as a story to anyone else. Completely agree with you that it's all in the opinion of the beholder, which is why it's a topic that could never reach an agreement.
As you suggested also, one of the major sticking points for me is also, why someone with a developed talent couldn’t replicate this in a controlled environment, or why they wouldn’t want to.
Supposing they are not a fraud that is.
Why is this thread still going. Clearly there are two basic sides. One side requires evidence of things that, if real, overthrow a rather large part of our time-tested and verified and fully evidenced physical laws/procedures/facts/mathmatics (and for which there is no evidence that is not purely anecdotal). The other does not. Fine, I'm with the first group. If you aren't, good luck on the purple flying unicorns thing. Absence of evidence is not proof of absence, but it is surely a damned good starting point!!!
ExMinister
RSL Acolyte
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This is a question worthy of consideration. It has occurred to me, too.
One suggestion to you and jfish from someone who has had probably hundreds of lucid dreams/OBEs (me): Work to achieve them, figure out ways to test them, but don't settle for one experience as proof. Be your own harshest critic. A good experiment should be repeatable.
The more experiences I had, the more I began to gather evidence that made me suspect they were brain-based. I am not sure I could have reached that conclusion from just one or two.
I would have been more than happy to participate in a controlled trial, though my experiences happened spontaneously and I couldn't necessarily instigate them.
Just my 2 cents.