The United Nations and Libya (Quadaffi)

There seems to be a widespread consensus it was a rebel plane.

Does this mean the rebels were violating the no-fly zone???? No, of course not, the no fly zone, like the ceasefire only applies to the government.....
 
little grey rabbit said:
There seems to be a widespread consensus it was a rebel plane.

Does this mean the rebels were violating the no-fly zone???? No, of course not, the no fly zone, like the ceasefire only applies to the government.....
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Actually the resolution permits flights for delivery of humanitarian aid, protection of civilians and enforcement of the no-fly zone. The said plane was serving the second of the three permissable purposes. You loose. :)

McHrozni
 
The 110 Tomahawk cruise missiles were "Operation Odyssey Dawn"...
 
McHrozni said:
Actually the resolution permits flights for delivery of humanitarian aid, protection of civilians and enforcement of the no-fly zone. The said plane was serving the second of the three permissable purposes. You loose. :)

McHrozni
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A Holocaust Denier is wrong?
I am shocked....SHOCKED...by that.
 
McHrozni said:
Actually the resolution permits flights for delivery of humanitarian aid, protection of civilians and enforcement of the no-fly zone. The said plane was serving the second of the three permissable purposes. You loose. :)
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I loose what?

Did I not say already (maybe on a different thread) that the UN resolution regarding protection of civilians and immediate ceasefire only applies to government forces and not rebels?

So that fact that the no-fly zone doesn't apply to rebels is just more joyful confirmation of the "debasement of language" that corrupt regimes inevitably descend into.

Speaking of more "debasement of language" it is not really a no-fly-zone resolution, it is a "tactical air support" resolution. Even in the first wave of missiles they said they had attacked armoured vehicles. In this instance they are still using the figleaf that armoured vehicles can fire surface to air missiles.

But lets be clear, the rules of engagement is not to enforce a no-fly zone but to provide tactical air support to the rebels and that is exactly what they are doing.
 
boyntonstu said:
from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran–Iraq_War
Iran

500,000 to 1,000,000 dead;[8][9][10][11][12]

Iranian government official figure of 188,015 soldiers, militia, and civilians killed;[13][14]

Economic loss of more than US$500 billion[10]


Iraq
Estimated 300,000 soldiers, militia, and civilians killed or wounded[citation needed]

Economic loss of more than US$500 billion[10]

Muslim vs Muslim


Very conservative figures.
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Only one problem. Iranians aren't Arabs.
 
Ghaddaffii opens up his arms cache to all interested civilians.

Qaddafi added that all of the country's people were now carrying weapons to defend the nation.
"We will not leave our land and we will liberate it," he said.
He said he has opened up the weapons depots to Libyans, and said everyone is armed with "automatic weapons, mortars, bombs."
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Now he is certain to lose the civil war. That's if he actually did it.
​
 
a_unique_person said:
Ghaddaffii opens up his arms cache to all interested civilians.

Now he is certain to lose the civil war. That's if he actually did it.
[/COLOR][/LEFT]
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He was probably smart enough to deliver weapons primarily to his supporters, and those employed in various state agencies. If they turn on him he's doomed anyway.
However, now that they are armed, chances of turning on him are significantly increased.

McHrozni
 
McHrozni said:
He was probably smart enough to deliver weapons primarily to his supporters, and those employed in various state agencies. If they turn on him he's doomed anyway.
However, now that they are armed, chances of turning on him are significantly increased.

McHrozni
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So now his is trying the Volksturm bit. Won't work.
 
dudalb said:
So now his is trying the Volksturm bit. Won't work.
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Depends how popular he is in West-Libya. He's up against against a low quality rebel army, not a modern western army.

But the bigger problem is, with so weapons distributed among people from many different tribes, "victory" might be a civil war.
 
Eddie Dane said:
The friendly fire incident with the rebel fighter jet was heartbreaking.
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Get used to it. That's what happens when poorly trained, poorly equiped armies fight.

A lot more rebels will die from friendly fire on the ground.
 
dudalb said:
So now his is trying the Volksturm bit. Won't work.
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Depends. The weapons won't be of much use against the coalition planes, but if he has substantial genuine support among the armed section of the populace, the only way to "win" would be to wipe them out, which would be a defeat in it's own right. Ground combat against them would fall on the rebels, which are likely less well armed, making this very long and very bloody struggle. In that case, Libya would become a failed state.

Everything is still open. If Quackdaffi lacks sufficient genuine support, this will be over in days, perhaps weeks at the most. He could be already dead for all we know.

McHrozni
 
McHrozni said:
Depends. The weapons won't be of much use against the coalition planes, but if he has substantial genuine support among the armed section of the populace, the only way to "win" would be to wipe them out, which would be a defeat in it's own right. Ground combat against them would fall on the rebels, which are likely less well armed, making this very long and very bloody struggle. In that case, Libya would become a failed state.

Everything is still open. If Quackdaffi lacks sufficient genuine support, this will be over in days, perhaps weeks at the most. He could be already dead for all we know.
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From what I understand, tribalism is a significant force in Libya. Gadaffi's powerbase consists mainly of a number of tribes in West-Libya, while the East has never been very happy with him.

It remains to be seen how the rebels from the East will treat the tribes who, under Gadaffi, dominated the country. Especially after heavy fighting by both sides.
 
egslim said:
From what I understand, tribalism is a significant force in Libya. Gadaffi's powerbase consists mainly of a number of tribes in West-Libya, while the East has never been very happy with him.

It remains to be seen how the rebels from the East will treat the tribes who, under Gadaffi, dominated the country. Especially after heavy fighting by both sides.
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Yes, if his own people turn on him, this is the question that will be posed next. It is also something which could deter them from turning on him.

Libya may be ****** for the next couple of generations. I'm not taking any bets as to who will be blamed for it.

McHrozni
 
Am I missing something? The reason for the intervention isn't "we would like the rebels to rule Libya instead of Kadaffi", however true that might be, but that "Kadaffi said and clearly meant that he is going to genocide the rebels and everybody who knows them, and force is the only practical way to stop him from doing it."

These two are not the same. And, yes, if the rebels in turn genocide Kadaffi's supporters en masse or seem to be on the verge of doing it, the coalition should use force to stop them, too.
 
McHrozni said:
He was probably smart enough to deliver weapons primarily to his supporters, and those employed in various state agencies. If they turn on him he's doomed anyway. However, now that they are armed, chances of turning on him are significantly increased.
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This is almost certainly another lie told by the pro-Gaddafi government and meant to be heard by all the Libyan people and the coalition forces.

Look at what was announced.

Libya to give weapons to one million people: report

Libya's government has begun distributing arms to more than one million people and will complete the operation within hours, the state news agency reported on Sunday.

Jana news agency quoted sources in Libya's defense ministry as saying they "expected the operation to end in the next hours to arm more than a million men and women."
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Handing out a million weapons to male and female civilians? And the task will be completed within hours? This is a joke! Note that nobody was even told where to go get your new gun. A million people formed an orderly queue to get their weapons? Where? When? How?

Gaddafi hoaxes the people with the goal of planting ideas in their heads. He wants everyone to think that this happened. You didn't get a gun? Oh, well sorry for that, but know that a million of your "brothers and sisters" did get theirs.
 
William Parcher said:
This is almost certainly another lie told by the pro-Gaddafi government and meant to be heard by all the Libyan people and the coalition forces.
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Ultimately it makes little difference either way. Saddam didn't distribute weapons among the population before his fall either, but a lot of people ended up with an AK47 anyway.

Plenty of weapons go missing when a regime is violently toppled.
 
Skeptic said:
Am I missing something? The reason for the intervention isn't "we would like the rebels to rule Libya instead of Kadaffi", however true that might be, but that "Kadaffi said and clearly meant that he is going to genocide the rebels and everybody who knows them, and force is the only practical way to stop him from doing it."

These two are not the same. And, yes, if the rebels in turn genocide Kadaffi's supporters en masse or seem to be on the verge of doing it, the coalition should use force to stop them, too.
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Gadaffi says a lot of things, including threats about worldwide terrorist attacks and setting the whole Mediterranean on fire.
I don't buy his threat of mass genocide either. Ruthless suppression and a few thousand executions, yes. Genocide in the true meaning of the word, no.

Genocide is hard. He doesn't have the loyalty among the Libyans to get them to wipe out a city of their own, and he doesn't have the organizational capability to set it up.

Likewise, the rebels won't do a real genocide on Gadaffi's supporters. But there's a lot of potential for violence and killings.
 
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