Kid gets suspended after standing up to bully

[Nihilianth]

I think at both my schools you would find the assistant principal and principal would be happy if it was only the fights they had to deal with.

there are many forms of disruption that rise above a class room management issue.

What percentage of your school has free and reduced lunch? Mine are both at 75% , we also have a large number os students who have chaotic familes and absent parents, at one time last year one school had a student population of parents absent at 15% for just incarceration. Many of our students have loving and great families, many of them do not.

I guess I really AM a suburbanite than. In my school, we have much less than 75% on free/reduced lunch. I am not sure what the exact numbers are, but I only have 5 kids out of 26 on reduced lunch, and one of them gets free lunch. The one little girl on free lunch is the SWEETEST little thing I have ever had the pleasure of meeting. She is incredibly tiny, but looks up at you with these big black eyes, and tries to do her best in school, like her life depends on it. Her mother is one of the nicest ladies I have ever met in my life. Barely able to make ends meet, but she still bakes cupcakes for some of the staff members at the school. She still manages to dress her daughter better than most other kids in the school. And yet, I have seen this little girl get picked on by one of the other girls one time. Broke my heart.

Now, at the same time, as I have said, I have attended three rich Catholics schools from Kindergarten up through 8th grade. Those kids were NASTY as hell. So I am not sure what the correlation truly is between schools with poor kids with violence and bullying, and schools with rich kids with violence and bullying. I think that kids are just kids, no matter their upbringing. To tell ya the truth, I think that middle-class kids are the most sensible kids there are. My high school between 9th and 12th grade was nothing but middle-class. It was rather orderly, and the student body pretty much took care of itself in self-governing conduct. Bullying wasn't really tolerated.

So maybe it's just the extreme ends between the rich and the poor that is full of such bad behavior? Or just simply my inexperience in not "seeing it all" yet.

We have one over the front door that can be monitored.

Actually the bath rooms are not much of a problem due to supervision.

Great.

We are lucky to find people who will do playground supervision, teh pay is low and only two hours, no hall monitors in grade schools.
The luch room is not a huge issue, except for verbal insults.

One of the reasons why the government needs to be spending MORE money on education, not less. Technology would really help the staff out a lot in more efficiently running a school. Video cameras and other security measures, such as lunch room and hallway monitors, can really expedite and alleviate many of the social problems that occur in school, giving the teachers and administrators more usable time in...well....teaching and administering.

Unfortunately, you have displayed exactly why the education budget needs to be raised. Not necessarily for more and better classroom materials (although, it would certainly help!) But in security details.

[in jest] Where do you teach Rock Candy valley?[/in jest]

Not familiar with this. Is it a movie or something?

Sorry we have had fights that happened because of family history, we have had fights that occur because of what one person did in a higher grade at another school, we have had fights happened because of what happened over the weekend.

Many fights are very clear cut and many are not.

I haven't seen too many fights yet, so I am quite inexperienced on these crazy issues. Usually, I only see certain kids get picked on by other certain kids, and am told the histories between the two students involved. I will say that little Bobby did such-and-such to little Christopher to another teacher or the principal. The common reaction is some eye rolling, and a side comment of "figures. The usual suspects," in regards to little Chris getting picked on and bullied by little Bobby.

(Made up names. Nobody in my room named Chris or Bob.)

 

[Dancing David]

I thought we were talking about the victim defending himself getting punished.

And I may not have segued very well.

All the busses in my school district had cameras on them at the top of the windshield in the middle. But even so, it can still be hard.

Well the bus cameras help some, but they can't really tell you who is calling whose mama a crack whore.

Even if a verbal fight broke out on a bus or elsewhere, there is still no excuse for anyone to just walk up to someone and start punching them in the face.

Of course but if you have a stituation of increasing escalation it mat be the actual bully who looks like the victim.

How expensive is the software in a live-feed system? I assume it is probably pretty expensive.

Not that expensive, just money the board doesn'tw ant to spend.

See, one of the reasons why the education budget in this country is not nearly to the level it needs to be. For fear of sparking an off-topic discussion, I find it rather wasteful is idiotic that we can spend trillions of dollars bailing out banks, and bombing tents in the middle of deserts. And yet, the education budget doesn't even top a trillion. Why is that? Why is our priorities not placed on the future of our nation?

No argument from me.

And the whole idea of taking away funding from poor-performing schools is seems to be exactly opposite of what we need to be doing! We should be increasing spending, so schools can afford such things as better security equipment, better materials, better teachers, better administrator, better sports equipment, and better cafeteria food. My school is talking about cutting the morning breakfast program for children who come from families that are on the poor side, and cannot afford to feed them more than once or twice a day. Ridiculous, if you ask me.

anyway, another rant. Sorry.

You will here the same thing from me, alot.

...




I have yet to see a situation myself that wasn't clear-cut yet. Of course, I am only 27, and my first full year of teaching. I student-taught for the previous three years while in college. Last year I hopped between two classrooms of the second grade. One of the second grade classrooms was a complete disaster, and the other one was completely under control. But even with the disastrous room, I quickly found out who all the trouble-makers were. Took me about a week to figure it out.

Well this issue is more that eeven separting them we usually get three high flyer in a room, and they can all be in different moods, so child A who was a dork yesterday maybe angel today, but child C is still pissed about yesterday.

So far, I have yet to run into a "tough decision" as to who is at fault. Of course, I am sure that middle and high schoolers wise up quite a bit by that time. So I shall see if I can land this high school job next year.

Good luck.

...
Which is where I think I am confused. You were speaking about suspensions in general, during a conversation about the victim getting punished the same as the bully. I dunno, maybe you wren;t a part of that conversation. I'll probably have to go back to reread the this page and the previous one.

Could be me and my lack of segue.

 

[Dancing David]

I guess I really AM a suburbanite than. In my school, we have much less than 75% on free/reduced lunch. I am not sure what the exact numbers are, but I only have 5 kids out of 26 on reduced lunch, and one of them gets free lunch. The one little girl on free lunch is the SWEETEST little thing I have ever had the pleasure of meeting. She is incredibly tiny, but looks up at you with these big black eyes, and tries to do her best in school, like her life depends on it. Her mother is one of the nicest ladies I have ever met in my life. Barely able to make ends meet, but she still bakes cupcakes for some of the staff members at the school. She still manages to dress her daughter better than most other kids in the school. And yet, I have seen this little girl get picked on by one of the other girls one time. Broke my heart.

they are all, everyone of them, even the terrible one, cute and adorable at times.

I always try to rememeber they are someone's baby.

...
So maybe it's just the extreme ends between the rich and the poor that is full of such bad behavior? Or just simply my inexperience in not "seeing it all" yet.

In teh case of my school district it really depends on how much 'street' behavior there is. It is this small but vocal subculture.

...



Not familiar with this. Is it a movie or something?

No it is a depression era song, sorry it was meant in jest. Rock Candy Mountain.

I haven't seen too many fights yet, so I am quite inexperienced on these crazy issues. Usually, I only see certain kids get picked on by other certain kids, and am told the histories between the two students involved. I will say that little Bobby did such-and-such to little Christopher to another teacher or the principal. The common reaction is some eye rolling, and a side comment of "figures. The usual suspects," in regards to little Chris getting picked on and bullied by little Bobby.

(Made up names. Nobody in my room named Chris or Bob.)

Well often it is more complex in my building, we have so many emotional kids at times, other days they are just angels.

I live in a very mixed school district and even though we have school of choice, some 'street' parents send their kids to certain schools, other than than some neighborhoods are kind of poor. The two schools I work in are two of the three with the highest levels of low SES students.

Most days they are all great kids, and then there is a pocket of mean and stupidity.

 

[Crocoshark]

For some reason I feel like there's a whole lot of context missing from the original video. I mean, it begins with the smaller kid putting a hand on his shirt and preparing to punch and the bigger kid does nothing, like he was expecting that sort of action. And the bigger kid was just standing there like he was just gonna let him have a few punches, as if it were a fight he previously knew was coming. The way the bigger kid acts before the first punch it was as if the bigger kid decided to let the smaller kid make a few wimpy blows before getting pwned. What was happening beforehand that this incident was already being filmed?

Without context, this video could be many possible situations, but I don't think "random mean kid decides to start punching first kid bigger than HE is" is one of the more likely. The bigger kid does not seem caught off guard, or surprised or phased or any related synonym. This isn't the beginning of a confrontation.

And yeah, I'd suspend the bigger kid to if I was the principal and the smaller kid came into my office like that. Did you see how he was crying and bruised at the end of the vid? If you have the power to body slam someone, you also have the power to just push them to the ground, punch them in the stomach or any number of less dangerous take-downs. Maybe the smaller kid was in the wrong to, maybe they both needed to be dealt with in some way (even if that way is educating rather than punishment), maybe the smaller kid really was just picking on an innocent fat kid who he for some reason thought wouldn't retaliate. I really don't know. But I wouldn't be praising one and cheering the assault of the other as some seem to have done based on that measly clip.

And I did read the description above the video. I read it after watching the video, and I have no way of knowing whether the parent has the whole story or even an accurate one. It's the story that his son gave him, and no matter what role his son/friend played in this incident, they're going to give the parents the story that paints the smaller kid as the bad guy. For this reason, I don't think the description tells much relative to the video.

 

[Nihilianth]

For some reason I feel like there's a whole lot of context missing from the original video. I mean, it begins with the smaller kid putting a hand on his shirt and preparing to punch and the bigger kid does nothing, like he was expecting that sort of action. And the bigger kid was just standing there like he was just gonna let him have a few punches, as if it were a fight he previously knew was coming. The way the bigger kid acts before the first punch it was as if the bigger kid decided to let the smaller kid make a few wimpy blows before getting pwned. What was happening beforehand that this incident was already being filmed?

Without context, this video could be many possible situations, but I don't think "random mean kid decides to start punching first kid bigger than HE is" is one of the more likely. The bigger kid does not seem caught off guard, or surprised or phased or any related synonym. This isn't the beginning of a confrontation.

And yeah, I'd suspend the bigger kid to if I was the principal and the smaller kid came into my office like that. Did you see how he was crying and bruised at the end of the vid? If you have the power to body slam someone, you also have the power to just push them to the ground, punch them in the stomach or any number of less dangerous take-downs. Maybe the smaller kid was in the wrong to, maybe they both needed to be dealt with in some way (even if that way is educating rather than punishment), maybe the smaller kid really was just picking on an innocent fat kid who he for some reason thought wouldn't retaliate. I really don't know. But I wouldn't be praising one and cheering the assault of the other as some seem to have done based on that measly clip.

And I did read the description above the video. I read it after watching the video, and I have no way of knowing whether the parent has the whole story or even an accurate one. It's the story that his son gave him, and no matter what role his son/friend played in this incident, they're going to give the parents the story that paints the smaller kid as the bad guy. For this reason, I don't think the description tells much relative to the video.

Uh, I think you probably should read the whole thread before posting this. Everything you just said has already been covered.

 

[Crocoshark]

Uh, I think you probably should read the whole thread before posting this. Everything you just said has already been covered.

Fair enough, my apologies, but the thread's 13 pages long. I don't know if you can narrow it down to the pages where my points are covered?

If it's already covered then ignore my last post.

P.S. I'm reading page 7

 

[Nihilianth]

Fair enough, my apologies, but the thread's 13 pages long. I don't know if you can narrow it down to the pages where my points are covered?

If it's already covered then ignore my last post.

P.S. I'm reading page 7

Ok. Fair enough on your part as well. If you want, I suppose I could cover your points specifically, since you were being fair and honest in your post.

 

[Gilmar]

Penny Arcade weighs in:
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2011/3/18/

 

[Legend]

The mother of "Ritchard", who was jailed for naming her child such a triple-bogan name, has said that her son "deserved it" and that she'd "like to see him say sorry". But she also made the point of Casey being a lot bigger than that rat thing she gave birth to, which probably means she's a pushover parent. If her son doesn't die at 20 or so from drink driving or drugs or even another fight, she can enjoy seeing him in prison every few years.

A Current Affair have an interview with Casey. Unfortunately it's ACA and not 60 Minutes, but I'm still watching. I think it's tomorrow night.

 

[Crocoshark]

Ok. Fair enough on your part as well. If you wantppose I could cover your points specifically, since you were being fair and honest in your post.

Yes, I think that would be fair. I'd appreciate it.

Long P.S.

I just read page 7 & half of page 8 than re-watched the video. In my first viewing I thought the video opened with both kids face to face, not noticing the first second or so, (which is kinda hypocritical of me for all my focus on having to know what happened at the beginning of the incident.). I'm still confused because it looks like the bigger kid is staring ahead and then the other kid walks in front of him and prepares to punch and I can't visibly discern any reaction to this from the bigger kid as if the bigger kid was expecting this the whole time. The beginning just looks weird to me for that reason.

I know I said in my earlier post that he had alternatives to body slamming the kid, but while I still feel he got ahead of himself I understand it was the heat of the moment and won't pursue the "he should've known better" or similar arguments.

My description of what I'd do if I were principal, and the smaller kid's injuries was a bit kneejerk. Though, I think on page 8 you described the sound at the end as laughing, I still think it sounded closer to crying but wasn't necessarily so. His face looked bruised but since children's bruises can often look more shocking to adults then they actually are, I don't know. I shouldn't speculate what he'd be like walking into a principal's office based on what he's like seconds after the pavement. I found that both kids were suspended for 4 days anyway. All I was really trying to say was I can see the reasoning for the school suspending him and think it's understandable based on my feeling that the smaller kid looked more hurt.

I read the telegraph link where an anonymous classmate confirmed he was the bullied, rather than bully. So okay, that clarifies things. I still maintain that all the feelings of certainty about that BEFORE such info was posted was not well-justified

 

[qarnos]

An Australian current affairs show (ironically named, A Current Affair), did an interview with Casey Heynes, which aired tonight. Now on youtube:

 

[Bell]

An Australian current affairs show (ironically named, A Current Affair), did an interview with Casey Heynes, which aired tonight. Now on youtube:

Thanks for the link, Qarnos.

 

[Dancing David]

It looks as though Anonymous may have brought down the school web page for failing to provide Casey a violence free zone.

 

[Nihilianth]

And I may not have segued very well.

It's all good. I think I got your point now.

Well the bus cameras help some, but they can't really tell you who is calling whose mama a crack whore.

Of course but if you have a stituation of increasing escalation it mat be the actual bully who looks like the victim.

I don't think that should really matters a whole lot. What matters, is when someone escalates it from words, to violence. Of course, if there were claims being made that someone was verbally abusing the person who initiated the violence, or that words of abuse were coming from both sides, then they both should be punished. But I hardly think the punishment should be equal. The person who started the violence should be held responsible for escalating a situation into violence..

However, in this particular situation in the OP, it has been said from all around that the Casey kid was the one getting verbally abused, and bullied, and so forth.

I was just saying, if he is a quiet kid, teachers notice this. If someone is a bully, teachers eventually catch on, and will notice a bullying action coming from that individual. Kids cannot possibly hide their temperament from teachers forever. Usually, they can't hide their temperament for more than five minutes. Especially 8 year olds. lol. Though I am sure that high school kids are a lot wiser, I would still bet that teachers tend to notice the bullies fairly quickly. And based on prior history (most fights go on students' permanent records,) and students' temperaments and personalities, it is a pretty safe bet to paint a picture of what transpires for most situations. I can see your point about stuff that happens over the weekend or outside of school. But those are times and places outside the realm of what the school should have to deal with or take into consideration. What happens on the school grounds is up for the school to consider.

Not that expensive, just money the board doesn'tw ant to spend.

No argument from me.

You will here the same thing from me, alot.

lol, that little rant of mine was a point of why schools cannot or will not spend money for security technology. It is a big factor why we are no longer number one in the world in education. Teachers should not have to be babysitters. And kids should not have to be punished if they are victims. The answer to making the school day that much more efficient, is better security equipment. At least my school I teach at does this quite well. We only have one or two incidents every couple of days that results in one or two students obtaining either detention, or a suspension.

Well this issue is more that eeven separting them we usually get three high flyer in a room, and they can all be in different moods, so child A who was a dork yesterday maybe angel today, but child C is still pissed about yesterday.

And one of the reasons why kids are so strange.

Yes, I know EXACTLY what you are talking about!

Good luck.

Thanks. I'll probably need it!

Could be me and my lack of segue.

It's all good. I think I have it figured out now.

 

[GeeMack]

I found that both kids were suspended for 4 days anyway. All I was really trying to say was I can see the reasoning for the school suspending him and think it's understandable based on my feeling that the smaller kid looked more hurt.

Yes, if a bully rips into someone then gets his ass handed back to him, both parties should be punished equally if the bully is hurt worse than his victim. Huh? That is, of course, one of the most ridiculous arguments anyone has posted yet in this thread.

Getting back to a reasonable world, if a bully rips into someone then gets his ass handed back to him, tough luck. So he gets dropped on his noggin. That's the chance you take when you go around hitting people.

When his parents taught him that he might die if he dashes out in the street without looking, and that he might get seriously injured if he puts his hand in a fire, and that he might die if he jumps off the roof of the house, they should have taught him that he might get his body broken if he goes around hitting people.

And the victim, who some here have irrationally argued should be punished, should be congratulated.

 

[Nihilianth]

they are all, everyone of them, even the terrible one, cute and adorable at times.

I always try to rememeber they are someone's baby.

Yes. I am the same way. The one kid who is the master bully in the classroom, is one of the kids I actually internally cheer for the most. He is growing up in a broken home. There are days when he is a complete monster, and wish he were somewhere else. There are other days when he is one of the most studious in the room. (It really looks like he's bipolar or something, but God forbid, I mention this thought to anyone! )

In teh case of my school district it really depends on how much 'street' behavior there is. It is this small but vocal subculture.

We have some of that in my school as well. But I think the extra hands in the hallways and cafeteria, as well as security equipment actually takes care of a lot of problems.

No it is a depression era song, sorry it was meant in jest. Rock Candy Mountain.

Ok. Never heard it myself.

Well often it is more complex in my building, we have so many emotional kids at times, other days they are just angels.

I live in a very mixed school district and even though we have school of choice, some 'street' parents send their kids to certain schools, other than than some neighborhoods are kind of poor. The two schools I work in are two of the three with the highest levels of low SES students.

Most days they are all great kids, and then there is a pocket of mean and stupidity.

I think that is the result of kids just being kids. Especially if they are younger. I have plenty of emotional kids who are really great at times, and are more than willing to be helpful and quiet. Then there are days when the room is in an uproar.

The worst days are generally Fridays and Mondays. The best day I seem to notice, are Wednesdays. The kids come in on Wednesday, all bored and tired. They also do their work when told, with some groaning here and there. But they do it. lol.

Although, I was quite perplexed by last Wednesday. Last monday and tueday were great days. I thought it was going to be one of the better weeks of the year, because Wednesday and Thursday are usually the best days. Got through Monday and Tuesday perfectly. But for some odd reason, right off the bat Wedensday morning, there was a big fight between two kids in the auditorium, where three teachers had to pry them apart. And in the classroom, man, it was in a complete uproar! Had the assistant principal come in a couple of times. I didn't get through a single lesson that day. I took an Advil and just sat there with the lights off for five minutes at one point as they were all shouting and carrying on. Made 15 phone calls home later that evening. It really felt like one of the second grade rooms from last year. I had no idea what the hell their problems were. About three kids were bawling all day, three of four others were just throwing tantrums and telling me "No!" And all the rest followed suit. I didn't understand it.

 

[Nihilianth]

Yes, I think that would be fair. I'd appreciate it.

Long P.S.

I just read page 7 & half of page 8 than re-watched the video. In my first viewing I thought the video opened with both kids face to face, not noticing the first second or so, (which is kinda hypocritical of me for all my focus on having to know what happened at the beginning of the incident.). I'm still confused because it looks like the bigger kid is staring ahead and then the other kid walks in front of him and prepares to punch and I can't visibly discern any reaction to this from the bigger kid as if the bigger kid was expecting this the whole time. The beginning just looks weird to me for that reason.

I know I said in my earlier post that he had alternatives to body slamming the kid, but while I still feel he got ahead of himself I understand it was the heat of the moment and won't pursue the "he should've known better" or similar arguments.

My description of what I'd do if I were principal, and the smaller kid's injuries was a bit kneejerk. Though, I think on page 8 you described the sound at the end as laughing, I still think it sounded closer to crying but wasn't necessarily so. His face looked bruised but since children's bruises can often look more shocking to adults then they actually are, I don't know. I shouldn't speculate what he'd be like walking into a principal's office based on what he's like seconds after the pavement. I found that both kids were suspended for 4 days anyway. All I was really trying to say was I can see the reasoning for the school suspending him and think it's understandable based on my feeling that the smaller kid looked more hurt.

I read the telegraph link where an anonymous classmate confirmed he was the bullied, rather than bully. So okay, that clarifies things. I still maintain that all the feelings of certainty about that BEFORE such info was posted was not well-justified

Ah, I am glad you found that post! I really honestly didn't feel like explaining it and looking for the post which contained a lot more context behind the video, though I said I would.

When I said the smaller kid was "laughing," I didn't mean "Hah-hah! that was funny! laughing." I mean like groaning in pain, and laughing about it at the same time. Like when you smack your funny bone in your elbow off of something. It hurts, and your entire arm does all strange. Usually people are in utter pain, but kind of laugh and groan about it for five minutes.

In any case, with the context in place, the four day suspension was entirely inappropriate. I can see a suspension for the rest of the day, or maybe the next day. But not as a punishment. More as a "cooling off" period. And I would explain this fully to the victim and the parents that Casey isn't necessarily getting punished, so much as trying to keep things cool. No doubt, there were those in his classroom that were present as well. And in order to keep the next day calm as possible, it would be a good idea to keep poor Casey home for a day.

The bully, on the other hand, would receive a four day suspension,with a warning not to pick on other kids any longer. I would explain to the parents that it may eventually result in an expulsion if he keeps up that behavior. I have zero tolerance for bullies.

 

[Nihilianth]

An Australian current affairs show (ironically named, A Current Affair), did an interview with Casey Heynes, which aired tonight. Now on youtube:

Thanks for the link!

 

[Crocoshark]

Yes, if a bully rips into someone then gets his ass handed back to him, both parties should be punished equally if the bully is hurt worse than his victim. Huh? That is, of course, one of the most ridiculous arguments anyone has posted yet in this thread.

I made sure I never used the word "should". That wasn't an is-ought argument. I said that based on my initial reaction to seeing the video once, I think the school's reaction was understandable from the position I imagined them in. That's not the same as thinking it's ideal or fair.

Ah, I am glad you found that post! I really honestly didn't feel like explaining it and looking for the post which contained a lot more context behid the video, though I said I would.

When I said the smaller kid was "laughing," I didn't mean "Hah-hah! that was funny! laughing." I mean like groaning in pain, and laughing about it at the same time. Like when you smack your funny bone in your elbow off of something. It hurts, and your entire arm does all strange. Usually people are in utter pain, but kind of laugh and groan about it for five minutes.

I can't think of ever having such a personal experience, but alright.

In any case, with the context in place, the four day suspension was entirely inappropriate. I can see a suspension for the rest of the day, or maybe the next day. But not as a punishment. More as a "cooling off" period. And I would explain this fully to the victim and the parents that Casey isn't necessarily getting punished, so much as trying to keep things cool. No doubt, there were those in his classroom that were present as well. And in order to keep the next day calm as possible, it would be a good idea to keep poor Casey home for a day.

The bully, on the other hand, would receive a four day suspension,with a warning not to pick on other kids any longer. I would explain to the parents that it may eventually result in an expulsion if he keeps up that behavior. I have zero tolerance for bullies.

Agreed. Although, I can't get myself worked up over the kid getting 4 days off the way other people have. As a kid, the punishment of suspension was in large part the attention and talking to it would draw from parents for my bad behavior, as opposed to the suspension itself. His parents on are on his side, the internet as made him a HERO, he's on TV and like you said, he deserves a day off or two anyway. I'd have given him the four days off as a vacation. I feel like in any other situation I'd be decrying that kids get punished for defending themselves but in this one, I just can't get worked up the way others are. Sure, the school thinks that it's a punishment (or more accurately, they're following zero tolerance protocol, who knows but faculty could be with him as well) but I think that sentiment's gonna have a very weak influence when Casey has the world on his side.

In fact, the outrage against his suspension may actually draw attention to the unfairness of zero tolerance protocol, which is a good thing.

 

[preptic]

Of course avoidance doesn't work, but you can't just drop people on their heads. That can easily kill someone.

When you have been constantly bullied for a long time, and you find that you are reaching your limit, you might find yourself suddenly snapping and not really being in control of what's happening.

This was a desperate action by a desperate kid who finally snapped after being bullied for a long time.

The criticism here should be aimed at the adults who did not stop the bullying.