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General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

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Someone want to point out that saying "strawman" doesn't make it true?

the strawman I pointed out is indeed a strawman.

and if NOT a strawman, then its a lie. you choose.

do you REALLY feel that the 1 million people of Gaza are trying to kill every last Israeli?

huh.
 
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Why should I believe your alternative scenario? Give me one good reason to think Iran is involved in he Libyan civil war and I'll consider it.
 
Why should I believe your alternative scenario? Give me one good reason to think Iran is involved in he Libyan civil war and I'll consider it.

it was just a guess. honestly, I have no evidence to say where those weapons were bound for.

and neither do you.

:)
 
Yes, I have a well known history between Iran, Syria and Hamas to base my assumption on.

you have a history between Iran, Syria, and Hamas?

interesting.

....but what evidence do you have that these weapons for bound for Gaza?

none. :)
 
afraid to answer the question?:rolleyes:

When was the last time you answered one of my questions, BD? Did you know I've got a few out there, just waiting for your attention? Would you like me to post some links?

In the mean time, to answer Thunder's question: Nobody is occupying Gaza.

The things Thunder cites as evidence of an occupation are actually evidence of a blockade. Occupation and blockade are two different things.

If the question were "who is blockading Gaza?", the answer would be "Israel and Egypt".

But the answer to Thunder's question is "nobody", and no amount of blockading will change that answer at all. Because occupation and blockade are two different things.
 
what do you call the logical fallacy when someone answers a question that was not asked?

Hrm. Good point. I was conflating your question and BD's. Sorry 'bout that.

To answer your question (though I'm certainly not the first to do so): Hamas controls the Gaza Strip. Whether or not Hamas is a national government depends on who you talk to, I suppose.

To answer BD's question: Israel and Egypt control access to Gaza, without occupying Gaza. They accomplish this by means of a blockade, which is different from an occupation.

I hope this clears up any confusion either you may have had.
 
Hrm. Good point. I was conflating your question and BD's. Sorry 'bout that.

To answer your question (though I'm certainly not the first to do so): Hamas controls the Gaza Strip. Whether or not Hamas is a national government depends on who you talk to, I suppose.

Hamas is not an internationally recognized soverign entity.

Now, for argument's sake, I will say that Israel's Occupation of Gaza is now much more of a legal status, than a matter-of-fact, in the ground kinda Occupation.

But as far as soverignity & legality are concerned, Israel remains the Occupying power of the Gaza Strip. With Palestinian self-rule under Hamas.
 
please provide evidence that the ship bound for Alexandria, was going to then ship the weapons to Gaza.

Libya supported Iran in the the Iran/Iraq war. It's not crazy to think Iran wouldn't materially support Libya when they need it, but I wonder what international law has to say about Iran shipping arms to Gaddaffi during the conflict.
 
Thanks for the perspective. What do you mean by this?

He means Jordan's giving up any claim to the territories in (I think) 1988. Contrary to wha some people here might seem to imply, however, nobody in Israel thinks it was a "cunning plan" to "stick" Israel with the territories: it was more a matter of Jordan looking after its own interests, figuring it has enough unruly Palestinians under its control as it is...

(About 80% of the population... ruled by a king from a Saudi family... imported there by the British... but Jordan is NOT, I repeat NOT, the Palestinian state, you know, and everybody who thinks so is an insane right-wing zionist.... but I digress.)

Anyway, it's all very nice to say it's special pleading when it isn't your country that has to defend against possible wars of annihilation -- with long experience about how this is precisely what many (not all) of Israel's neighbors want. Not to mention that without the Jordan valley weapons would flow into the territories, or the Palestinian state, and would be used instantly to kill Israelies -- as happened in Gaza. It would mean Tel Aviv would come under constant mortar bombardment (yes, Israel is that narrow without the territories), and Jerusalem under constant sniper fire; quite apart from the possiblity of a front cutting Israel in half within a few minutes after a war started.

So you see, on this issue it seems that Israel has to choose between its people getting killed or being on the usual gang's bad side for being such nasty "right wing zionists". But since the usual gang blames Israel for anything anyway and cares nothing about it -- certain people here, for instance, are on record saying they "don't know and don't care" how, or if, it will be possible for Israel to defend itself against attack without the territories -- what does that matter? They constantly say anything Israel wants or demands or asks is "illegitimate right-wing zionist extremism". It's as meaningless as the communists in their rallies calling everybody who disagrees with them a "fascist".
 
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By the way, to the mods: shouldn't this thread be merged with the "general Israel/Palestine discussion thread"?
 
Libya supported Iran in the the Iran/Iraq war. It's not crazy to think Iran wouldn't materially support Libya when they need it, but I wonder what international law has to say about Iran shipping arms to Gaddaffi during the conflict.

In the Middle East, "the enemy of my enemy, is my friend".
 
I was having a conversation with someone on facebook who posted how upset he is that the world has gotten swept up in Anti Semitism and doesn't support Israel as it should.

That arguments can be divorced from the anti-Semitism doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I'm sure there are plenty of people who can get a good Israel hate-on while convincing themselves, and probably truthfully, they are not anti-Semetic.


Still...

It used to be said that anti-Catholicism was the anti-Semitism of the intellectuals. Today anti-Semitism is the anti-Semitism of the intellectuals.

Not all intellectuals, of course. And the seepage of this ancient poison into the intelligentsia — always so militantly modern — is much more pronounced in Europe than here. But as anti-Semitism migrates across the political spectrum from right to left, it infects the intelligentsia, which has leaned left for two centuries.
 
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I don't think any honest members here believe that there are no anti-Semites amoung the millions of anti-Zionists, or even simply critics of Israel.

But to disregard any & all criticism of Israel as an "anti-Semitic double-standard", says a lot more about the accuser..then the accused.
 
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