Merged Core-led collapse and explosive demolition

My bolding. No it wouldn't.
Nonsense. The technical process probably requires rendering sound waves much like ray-tracing. To do so in terms other than energy is... :rolleyes:

We're clearly discussing human perception here
Nope. Attenuation of sound signal through structure and environment.

whether on the spot or through recordings. Suitable meters to record the energy output were not available.
Psycho-accoustic volume is a poor choice of reference imo.

Meanwhile your objections about height, distance and directionality of microphones fails at every fence.
Nope.

There were many microphones, and far more human ears of course, and precisely zero registered explosive blast. None.
Where did I say they did ? Just can't help yourself, can you. lol.

Your argument is mere sophism.
And what argument would that be ? :)

Bizarre delusions you lot have, y'know.
 
So we know what controlled demolition using detonation charges sounds like in emptied out buildings where the charges are laid throughout the building, including the perimeter structures. Do we know what detonations sound like if they have only been laid in the core column structure, in a building that has not been emptied out - indeed, is full of furniture, and sadly, still has people in it? I don't think we can know that because it hasn't occurred before.

Explosions have been heard in occupied buildings (you need to consider suicide bombers or conventional bombs in war). Witnesses to these usually describe loud explosions and news reports have had recordings with the sound.

That aside, If you would like calculations as to exactly how to make the noise less noticeable and reduce it to a level as not to be picked up by audio recorders, you need to tell us how much explosives were used. I find every reason to believe none were needed so there would be no explosive sound recorded. You seem to believe that explosives would be required so, how much, what type and where were they placed? Were they encased in blast blankets (like conventional) and was fragment suppression used?

The ball's in your court.
 
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I don't think I've ever accused ergo of having an argument or even a point.
 
Nonsense. The technical process probably requires rendering sound waves much like ray-tracing. To do so in terms other than energy is... :rolleyes:


Nope. Attenuation of sound signal through structure and environment.


Psycho-accoustic volume is a poor choice of reference imo.


Nope.


Where did I say they did ? Just can't help yourself, can you. lol.


And what argument would that be ? :)

Bizarre delusions you lot have, y'know.

lol. Ya have nothing. Give us your 'calcs'. Show us how relevant they are to 911! lol. How can someone who perports to be so smart be so dumb so many times?

Seems that some just like the sound of those voices and crave the attention by posting irrelevent **** that they toil over every day. No progress and failure at every post/video made.
 
I forgot to mention. In controlled demolition sound suppression is almost always used (I know for a fact it was used in Las Vegas). Typically this is low tech (mattresses wrapped in chain link fence) so keep this in mind considering this method would not be possible due to it's obviousness (is that a word?).
 
Given the intent would be a parameterised model, with sound being the focus, I don't think it matters too much. Properties of the pulse source could be varied.

Of course it matters since the type of explosive used will affect the type of pressure wave created. FFS.


I'd suggest that shaped point source would be a useful property, though for simplicity I'd suggest an initial spherical source.

As a baseline I would agree that a spherical source would be useful for the first run.


I do not agree. You are, with respect, poisoning the well. You know as well as I do that perimeter peeling was a side effect of the primary ROOSD process and mas funneling.

FEMR....you are in the "9/11 Conspiracy Theory" sub forum which is in the "Conspiracy Theories" forum on an internet debate forum. This is NOT an Engineering forum or a scientific venue.

The ENTIRE discussion is about the 9/11 conspiracy theory. If you want to discuss modeling and simulation issues I suggest you try a forum like "physicsforums"....but be warned....posters (including myself) there do not tolerate conspiracy theories.

Now as far as me poisoning the well I OBVIOUSLY know that the "lateral ejections" were not caused by explosives since that makes no sense on several levels. However the 911 conspiracy theory advocates DO believe this so you need to account for the various phenomena that such a position implies.

It's your conspiracy, not mine...I am simply pointing out the various things you might want to explore.


Would need inclusion, sure.

Although it is not necessary for every situation....for this particular wave propogation analysis you would need to include all three.


Still stuck in your conspiracy theory. Model the sound from source to receiver, apply to any scenario you please afterwards, once the math model exists.

Again....I'm not the one who is a Conspiracy Theorist....you are.


A boom high up in the tower doesn't have to be ground linked in any practical way. You are still blinkering your viewpoint with your conspiracy theory lilt.

"Ground linked"? I don't even know what that is supposed to mean (actually I do but I find the wording really really weird).

A sufficiently energetic explosion should travel all throughout the structure all the way to the ground.


Go for it.

My primary engineering experience is T&E, not M&S....and I have zero experience with modeling sound waves. The closest I have come is I do have some knowledge of how they model electromagnetic waves, but since I do not develop the algorithims and am basically an "end user" of such simulations that knowledge is very limited.

As is usually the case....I would go with the Engineers and Scientists who are experts at such M&S problems and specialize in that area.
 
Are you suggesting that only explosives can hurl steel beams several hundred feet?

Sigh....of course I'm not suggesting that FFS. That kind of nonsense is what truthers claim, not me.

Your fellow bedunkers insist that explosions were heard, and that for them not to be heard would be strange. So why indeed did cell phone calls not pick up any of these sounds that survivors and witnesses describe having heard?

Explosions do not equal explosives. Some day you will realize this....well maybe.

Which bedunker scientist claimed that the seismic records were "unreliable" due to all the chaos of the day. Was it Bazant? Yes, I think it was Bazant.

Oystein (I think) already answered this in pretty much the same way I would so I won't repeat the point here.

Basically you, once again, missed the point ergo.
 
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Where did I say they did ? Just can't help yourself, can you. lol.

I didn't say you did, so why do you ask?

I pointed out that not a single microphone or ear - no matter how close, far away, high or low, even in the buildings - registered an explosion. This remains a fact.

er, "lol" (this seems to be a requirement in femr2 land)
 
No, he isn't suggesting that at all. Some truthers are suggesting it, for example Richard Gage. Newton mere gives Femr2 the recommendation to run his boom-attenuation math for all common truther scenarios, as the aim is to prove once and for all that any truther delusion of explosives is false.

Good question ergo! Why indeed?
Here is the good (and easy) answer: Us fellow bee-dunkers agree and insist that there were no such loud "booms" when the towers fell. I here highlighted a phrase newton used in the post you quoted, which you ignored. As you probably read before, because I, Dave Rogers and other frequently pointed out in threads that you participated in, including (iirc) this current one: There were no booms consistent in timing, brisance and loudness with demolition charges.
To hammer this in:
There were plenty of booms while the towers were burning.
However, all of these booms were
- not loud enough
- not brisant enough (this property refers to the suddenness with which maximum amplitude is reached) or
- not heard at the required time, which is immediately before the visible onset of collapse
to be consistent with a high explosive cutter charge. This is proof that no explosion was a cutter charge.

Unreliable, as is every single witness who did or did not describe booms.
The seismic record may be unreliable, but is not worthless. It merely needs to be taken with care. If the seismic record was the only evidence we have, we might be undecided (but would lean towards no explosives), however it nicely corroborates all the other evidence we have: Video, phone calls, witness statements, and lack of cut and/or copper-lined structural steel that would be consistent with CD.

I did not get to reply to ergo's post until just a few minutes ago...

Oystein did a good job of answering the post while accurately representing my position. Thanks Oystein.
 
I forgot to mention. In controlled demolition sound suppression is almost always used (I know for a fact it was used in Las Vegas). Typically this is low tech (mattresses wrapped in chain link fence) so keep this in mind considering this method would not be possible due to it's obviousness (is that a word?).

You sort of get that correct. Plenty of none ct video available on youboob that give clear reason why this is done.

On the woo from femerism............I can visualize those secret ninja maintenance men not only carrying all that explosive in but also carrying all that muffler stuff and moving the furniture around abit................to make it not look like an 'inside jobby', so that femerism can then ask us for 'calcs' to prove that we can;t prove that it wasnt an 'inside jobby'.

oops, my brain just exploded....but it was muffled by my hair so my ears didnt hear it.
 
Of course it matters since the type of explosive used will affect the type of pressure wave created. FFS.
As I said, parameterise the pulse. Abstract it. FFS :)

FEMR....you are in the "9/11 Conspiracy Theory" sub forum which is in the "Conspiracy Theories" forum on an internet debate forum. This is NOT an Engineering forum or a scientific venue.
So ? A question of interest jumped out at me from the OP, so I'm discussing it. The relation to the OP is clear.

The ENTIRE discussion is about the 9/11 conspiracy theory. If you want to discuss modeling and simulation issues I suggest you try a forum like "physicsforums"....but be warned....posters (including myself) there do not tolerate conspiracy theories.
Here will do fine, thanks :)

Now as far as me poisoning the well I OBVIOUSLY know that the "lateral ejections" were not caused by explosives since that makes no sense on several levels. However the 911 conspiracy theory advocates DO believe this so you need to account for the various phenomena that such a position implies.
No I don't. I'm interested in...(repeat what I've said about twenty times already)

It's your conspiracy, not mine...
What conspiracy would that be ?

I am simply pointing out the various things you might want to explore.
I've made what I want to explore clear.

Although it is not necessary for every situation....for this particular wave propogation analysis you would need to include all three.
Agreed.

Again....I'm not the one who is a Conspiracy Theorist....you are.
And what conspiracy theory would that be ?

I do have some knowledge of how they model electromagnetic waves, but since I do not develop the algorithims and am basically an "end user" of such simulations that knowledge is very limited.

As is usually the case....I would go with the Engineers and Scientists who are experts at such M&S problems and specialize in that area.
Noted.
 
In all honesty I can "see" what people like you femr are saying by details, but the features you hone in on appear secondary. In other words without any supplemental evidence to suggest any form of detonations were used - other than planes + fire - then quibbling about how cameras catch sound, and what level of sound you expect from explosives is pointless. Don't get me wrong your theories are far more "believable" compared with the AE 911truth crackpottery, but there's still no evidence beyond speculation that I've seen being offered for it.
 
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Because regardless of energy or size all explosions have the same decibel rating - they all sound aloud the same. Pop a balloon or stand next to a nuclear explosion and they will sound the same won't they? :rolleyes:

So you mean some explosions are quieter than others?

What factors might cause some explosions to be quieter than others to an observer?
 
*There were no booms consistent in timing, brisance and loudness with demolition charges.

There weren't in the Alfred P. Murrah building, either. Only one. That we know of.

I believe I've stated repeatedly that the explosives used may not necessarily have been traditional CD cutter charges. Also, the point of the thread was to ponder what an explosive, or even standard cutter charges, may sound like placed at non-standard intervals in the inner core of a building that has not been emptied out.

The bedunkerism* that everyone keeps regurgitating here is irrelevant to this discussion.
 
In all honesty I can "see" what people like you femr are saying by details, but the features you hone in on appear secondary.
You can call it idle curiosity if you like, but given that folk have bandied around the notion that because there's no *boom* in footage *x* at time *y* that proves *z*, personally, I think it prudent to actually look at what is expected to be picked up by device *a* at location *b* relative to a theoretical *boom* at location *c*. That's just me :) If folk aren't interested, that's fine. If folk start throwing their toys out the cot making ludicrous inept claims about the intent, then I'm forced to *lol* a bit.
 
I forgot to mention. In controlled demolition sound suppression is almost always used (I know for a fact it was used in Las Vegas). Typically this is low tech (mattresses wrapped in chain link fence) so keep this in mind considering this method would not be possible due to it's obviousness (is that a word?).
SteveAustin, a member who no longer posts here, once tried to explain explosives damping on the WTC by linking me to an article about a US Army artillery range which used dirt berms and rubber walls to dampen sound. When I pointed out that you could see all the way through the WTC in almost every window, he Gish-Gallopped to the next subject.

What conspiracy would that be ?
...

And what conspiracy theory would that be ?

 

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