General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[Thunder]

I was having a conversation with someone on facebook who posted how upset he is that the world has gotten swept up in Anti Semitism and doesn't support Israel as it should.

typical Neo-Zionist, right-wing nationalism disguised as paranoia.

 

[bikerdruid]

being critical of israel's atrocious foreign and domestic policies is not 'anti-semitism'.
it is only common sense.

 

[Thunder]

being critical of israel's atrocious foreign and domestic policies is not 'anti-semitism'.
it is only common sense.

I am very critical of the atrocities in Libya.

Does this make me, "anti-Arab"?????

 

[bigjelmapro]

Which people are those, Skeptic?
Are they the people who are so slow to acknowledge the buffer zones and the control of territorial waters? You know... the people who argue that water and electricity are not the concern of government. That don't comment on the taxes Israel collects on behalf of the PA on foreign, non-Israeli goods that go to Gaza -- taxes Israel at first withheld when Hamas won the election. etc, etc.

Point out where Israel has any obligation to provide taxes collected to a terrorist group? I'm sure you'll argue that Hamas won in a free and fair democratic election to circumvent the whole terrorist argument.

Water and electricity are also covered under the 1994 Gaza-Jericho agreement between the PA and Israel. Unless you would like to link any other working agreements, then I consider this also done and dusted.

Perhaps you should write Haniyeh to press him to change his mind from funneling money (much of it humanitarian aid) away from his military infrastructure into that of electricity/water so that Gaza can at least sustain itself and its ever growing population, also unsustainable growth I might add. Perhaps away from building tunnels and bunkers to that of housing complexes (not the luxurious apartment complexes its currently building).

Guess which state took responsibility for it and can't drop that responsibility by doing less than is necessary.

Another false premise based on your interpretation of occupation and Israel's perpetual obligation under said interpretation?

Try again?

 

[bikerdruid]

I am very critical of the atrocities in Libya.

Does this make me, "anti-Arab"?????

nope.

 

[truethat]

typical Neo-Zionist, right-wing nationalism disguised as paranoia.

Actually he's a born again Christian living in Cyprus but he's really gone off the rails in the last years.

I was always under the impression that Israel invaded Sinai and took it, and then Egypt took it back. I was also under the impression that much of why the Middle East and other parts of the world who ARE NOT anti Semitic, don't like Israel is they seem to do land grabs for protection. Then once they have the "occupied buffer zone" as protection, they try to build in these areas and then start pushing for the need for more "protection" and buffer zones.

From what I saw in Sinai in 1992 when I visited, it had definitely been built up before they finally had peace in 1982.

My opinion is that Israel had no right to take Sinai and they should have given it back if they wanted to avoid a war. He seems to think I've gotten this wrong. I just wanted to see if anyone could explain to me his perspective.

 

[WildCat]

I was having a conversation with someone on facebook who posted how upset he is that the world has gotten swept up in Anti Semitism and doesn't support Israel as it should.

I suggested that this isn't about Anti Semitism but really some people not liking Israel's foreign policy.

He brought up the Yom Kippur War and I replied that this was in response to Israel taking Sinai from Egypt for strategic purposes. They needed the land for protection.

It got me to thinking that maybe this is why so much accusation of "Anti- Semitism" is coming out of Israel because they seem to make a habit of occupying land that doesn't belong to them because they need "buffer zones" from all the crazies trying to kill them.

But I got to thinking, Isn't that a very unique claim? We all seem to understand that there needs to be "protection" and "buffer zones" but I can't think off the top of my head if there's another situation like this in the world.

Can any of you?

Also he seems to believe that Israel was sort of forced into taking Sinai for protection. Is this true? Can anyone fill me in on this. Thanks.

And what is the basis for your belief that Israel took that land as a buffer zone? The West Bank and Gaza was captured in a war started by the Arabs, and then the countries that had controlled those territories gave them up so Israel would be stuck with them. The Sinai was returned to Egypt over 30 years ago btw.

 

[Thunder]

Actually he's a born again Christian living in Cyprus but he's really gone off the rails in the last years.

sure sounds like it.

and btw, Zionists can be of any religion, race, etc etc.

I do not use "Zionist", as a code-word for Jews. Our Vice-President declared himself a Zionist. There are millions more Christian Zionists in the USA, than Jewish ones. In fact, I'd argue that the majority of non-Jewish Zionists in the USA are MORE extremist than the majority of Jewish ones, as far as the territories & Arabs are concerned.

 

[truethat]

Yes I know that about it being returned in 1982 when the peace agreement was made.


I'm checking the perspectives here. It was my understanding that Israel stated that they took Sinai as a "strategic" buffer zone between Egypt (Cairo) and Israel. Is this wrong?

If so, then why did they take it?

 

[Thunder]

nope.

I am actually boycotting China (as far as traveling), due to the occupation and genocide in Tibet. Does this make me "anti-Chinese"?

 

[WildCat]

My opinion is that Israel had no right to take Sinai and they should have given it back if they wanted to avoid a war.

You think they should have given it back without a peace treaty? After Egypt took part in a war whose aim was to completely destroy the state of Israel? And you expect Israel to just give it back, no strings attached?

I really doubt that most of the people crying about the land Israel captured in a war they didn't start would have blinked an eye if the Arab armies had succeeded in destroying Israel.

And I do think a lot of the anti-Israel sentiment is just the same old anti-semitism that has existed for over 2,000 years. It didn't vanish with the Nazi regime after WWII.

 

[WildCat]

If so, then why did they take it?

Leverage to force a peace treaty. Want your land back? Promise not to attack us again.

It's really that simple, unless like Thunder you think Israel deserves to be constantly attacked and has no right to defend itself from said attacks.

 

[truethat]

You think they should have given it back without a peace treaty? After Egypt took part in a war whose aim was to completely destroy the state of Israel? And you expect Israel to just give it back, no strings attached?

I really doubt that most of the people crying about the land Israel captured in a war they didn't start would have blinked an eye if the Arab armies had succeeded in destroying Israel.

And I do think a lot of the anti-Israel sentiment is just the same old anti-semitism that has existed for over 2,000 years. It didn't vanish with the Nazi regime after WWII.

Eh, why do you keep asking me what I think. I'm asking for your opinion on the situation.

I would cry. Not literally but you are over generalizing here. If you could explain to me why the Israelis sob over the Yom Kippur War as if they were total victims when from the Egyptian perspective they wanted their land back so back off.

I am NOT saying either side is right. <<<<<Read this sentence three times.

I'm simply curious why Israel doesn't seem to be able to understand it from the other side.

On the opposite side of the coin we have the idea that Israel has the right to Sinai because that's where Moses met God. So that sort of stupidity exists right next to anti semitism.

But I'm curious. I am certainly not an Anti Semite, so why is this accusation being tossed out instead of simply answering my question.

Please explain why Israel had a right to take Sinai? Do we have a right to go "take Iran" because they are threatening us?

 

[truethat]

Leverage to force a peace treaty. Want your land back? Promise not to attack us again.

It's really that simple, unless like Thunder you think Israel deserves to be constantly attacked and has no right to defend itself from said attacks.

Ok but then when they attacked during the Yom Kippur War why do they play the victim. You tried for strategy and it backfired.

 

[truethat]

And what is the basis for your belief that Israel took that land as a buffer zone? The West Bank and Gaza was captured in a war started by the Arabs, and then the countries that had controlled those territories gave them up so Israel would be stuck with them. The Sinai was returned to Egypt over 30 years ago btw.

Thanks for the perspective. What do you mean by this?

 

[Thunder]

It's really that simple, unless like Thunder you think Israel deserves to be constantly attacked and has no right to defend itself from said attacks.

Liar.

I have no such opinions and YOU know it.

Lieing about your opponents views doesn't help your case one bit, Wildcat. Infact, it hurts it greatly.

 

[truethat]

Curious Wildcat if you consider in incidents like the Kafr Qasim massacre?

 

[Thunder]

Curious Wildcat if you consider in incidents like the Kafr Qasim massacre?

it will be denied/excused/devalued/underestimated....and then defended.

 

[FireGarden]

Spamming the same links isn't going to magically produce evidence that Israel issues fishing permits. Not being able to fish the extra few kilometers of internal waters off Gaza is not evidence that Israel occupies Gaza.

The fishing permit quote is from B'tselem. The CIA link is given so that I can quote the bit about the waters of Gaza being occupied -- that's seperate to the bit of the same link which says Gaza is occupied.

And, yes, I do repeat links a lot. Because they are good links and support the claims I make. I'm always aware that I am anonymous bod on the internet and that what I say needs corroboration.

Its the concept of a buffer zone that eludes you. Israel only controls its side of the buffer zone,

No. That's rubbish. As the area marked 'no-go area' on the map I linked earlier shows.

I can only provide what personal experience I have when I was doing reserve duty along the Israel-Jordanian border, as per the agreements between the two nations.

What kind of evidence would satisfy you in this irrelevant deflection?

If it's an irrelevent deflection, then it's one you brought up.

I know you aren't arguing law, since the definitions provided regarding occupation do not agree with your interpretation, as well as those from several NGO's.

You seem to be under the impression that I have linked to HRW and Amnesty. I could have done that, but I didn't. Unlike you and Mycroft and the rest, I am spoilt for choice. I've linked to the CIA, I've quoted an EU representative, I've shown that the UK government refers to Gaza as occupied on their website.

If you think those are NGOs, then post a list of the governments that agree with Israel.

Point out where Israel has any obligation to provide taxes collected to a terrorist group? I'm sure you'll argue that Hamas won in a free and fair democratic election to circumvent the whole terrorist argument.

You seem to have missed the point of the claim. I do not claim that Israel has to give money to Hamas. I claim, and you seem to agree, that Israel collects taxes on foreign (non-Israeli) goods which enter Gaza. Collecting taxes, and setting tax rates, is the job of a government.

Water and electricity are also covered under the 1994 Gaza-Jericho agreement between the PA and Israel. Unless you would like to link any other working agreements, then I consider this also done and dusted.

Again you miss the point.

Another false premise based on your interpretation of occupation and Israel's perpetual obligation under said interpretation?

A false premise, huh? Every important organisation in the world seems to agree with me: Gaza is still occupied.

Some of the responsibilities Israel still has were admited to by Matan Vilnai, as deputy defense minister, when he saw the wall fall between Egypt and Gaza and was excited by the prospect that that would, finally, end Israel's responsibilities there.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jan/25/israelandthepalestinians.egypt

"We need to understand that when Gaza is open to the other side we lose responsibility for it. So we want to disconnect from it," [deputy defence minister, Matan Vilnai] said. "We want to stop supplying electricity to them, stop supplying them with water and medicine, so that it would come from another place."

 

[geni]

Well most countries are smart enough not to refer to them as buffer zones these days.

Still the kurdish area of turkey effectively qualifies.