The "She was asking for it with how she was dressed" sentiment

[A Laughing Baby]

This story nicely summarizes the sentiment you hear from time to time concerning rape victims.

There was an article about an 11 year old girl who was gangraped in Texas by 18 young men because she was dressed up like a 21-year-old prostitute. And her parents let her attend school like that. And I think it's incumbent upon us to create some areas where students can be safe in school and show up in proper attire so what happened in Texas doesn't happen to our students.

That quote is from a Florida state representative arguing in support of a dress code bill. The bill or its contents are not my main issue, however. Even the question of "how was she dressed?" places an implicit portion of the blame on the victim. As if I, as a man, cannot control myself whenever I see a woman dressed a certain way and transform Voltron-style into a rapist.

What are your thoughts on this sort of sentiment? Personally, it disgusts me, but I'd love to hear some other opinions on it.

 

[Bell]

One time a friend and I were walking home from a night of heavy drinking, both rather drunk as you can imagine. On the way home, some guys randomly choose us to attack and we got beaten up quite nasty. Next day my mother blamed me for it because "why was I walking drunk on the street in the first place". I still *********** hate her for that

I think you can guess how I feel about the question in the OP.

 

[fetchbeer]

If you are unable to keep yourself from raping a woman in any state of dress or undress then you really shouldn't be allowed out in public.

And this brings a thought to mind, if there is a correlation between how someone is dressed and rape, then rape ought to be lowest where women wear burkas and highest at nude beaches, now if only i could find some statistics on that...

 

[Bell]

If you are unable to keep yourself from raping a woman in any state of dress or undress then you really shouldn't be allowed out in public.

And this brings a thought to mind, if there is a correlation between how someone is dressed and rape, then rape ought to be lowest where women wear burkas and highest at nude beaches, now if only i could find some statistics on that...

You'll conduct interviews in Afghanistan. I'll be at the nude beach!

 

[CplFerro]

This is one of those issues that many people find hard to understand correctly. I shall simplify it for them.

(1) Rape is the rapist's fault, unless he (or she) honestly thought there was consent.

(2) A woman dressing provocatively in a bad part of town alone, or simply being in a bad part of town alone, is taking a chance, and should be made aware that she's taking a chance. Taking a big enough chance for no good reason is called stupidity.

Cpl Ferro

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

The way a woman is dressed can be wrongly interpreted as "signaling for sex." For instance, I've seen it claimed that a woman in a tank top is signaling for sex. When I wear a tank top, it is very rarely for the purpose of appearing sexually attractive. It is almost always because it is hot outside.

Furthermore, even if a woman IS dressed provocatively for the express purpose of advertising for sex, that is not an invitation to rape. Expressing an interest in sex does not mean a woman has somehow relinquished the right to chose who she has sex with. Just because she's putting out the sex beacon, doesn't mean she's looking for sex with you.

Using that logic, it should be open season to rape strippers, porn stars, as well as any actress or model who has ever appeared in media in a sexually provocative way.

 

[RobRoy]

I had thought this kind of sentiment was well and truly buried. I find it morally reprehensible to attempt to pin any blame whatsoever on the victim in this case, especially once you understand all the facts. Regardless of how flirtatious the child may have been or may have dressed, this is a clear case of sexual assault.

 

[bookitty]

This is one of those issues that many people find hard to understand correctly. I shall simplify it for them.

(1) Rape is the rapist's fault, unless he (or she) honestly thought there was consent.

(2) A woman dressing provocatively in a bad part of town alone, or simply being in a bad part of town alone, is taking a chance, and should be made aware that she's taking a chance. Taking a big enough chance for no good reason is called stupidity.

Cpl Ferro

The majority of rapes do not take place in a bad part of town because a woman took a chance. 75% of the time it is a friend or an acquaintance. More frequently a woman is raped after doing something that she has done many times before safely. - Trusting a friend of a friend to drive her home, letting a guy into her house after a terrific second date, going to a party with friends, being in her home, etc, etc.

Women get lectured about what they should/should not do from a very early age. They become somewhat paranoid about rape, especially because so many of them were or know someone who was raped or molested. Women are not stupid and blind. The fact that rape still happens doesn't mean that the woman stopped being paranoid, it means that the rapist was able to exploit one of the many situations that come about in the natural course of social interaction. It is in the rapist best interest to do so, they are invested in finding very small opportunities.

 

[SOdhner]

I heard an interesting stastistic about this. It seems that regardless of the way the woman was dressed, what part of town she was in, what she was doing, or what her goal was - in fact, whether or not it was a woman at all - in all cases of rape - 100% - there was a rapist present. That seems to be the key factor. Focusing too much on any of the other things seems counter-productive.

 

[Soapy Sam]

Not sure if the OP means to restrict the "asking for it" argument solely to the issue of rape.
It does seem obvious that in any walk of life, some precautions are advisory- we tend to lock the door on leaving home, we remove the ignition key at the gas station etc. I heard a policewoman today talking (on radio) about a number of sexual assaults in the last few months in Glasgow; she said there was no connection between the assailants and no reason to suspect a serial attacker- but that there was considerable uniformity in the victims- all of whom were young women who had gone out with a friend or in a group and "somehow become separated from them" before being attacked, alone in the early hours by "opportunists".
She went to some trouble to avoid the word "alcohol", because implying the victims were blind drunk could have jeopardised her career.

But she did advise that young women should plan how they would get home, inform family and friends of that plan, make sure they had enough money for a cab, check the times of last trains and buses, carry a phone, stay in touch with friends and family ,remain in company of reliable friends and if alone , lost or in any distress, call a copper. All of which sounded pretty sensible to me.

"She was asking for it" may be an unacceptable statement, but there is no excuse not to take reasonable precautions. There's how things ought to be - and there's how they are.

 

[qarnos]

I find it morally reprehensible to attempt to pin any blame whatsoever on the victim in this case, especially once you understand all the facts.

Holy $@!#.

From that article:

“It’s just destroyed our community,” said Sheila Harrison, 48, a hospital worker who says she knows several of the defendants. “These boys have to live with this the rest of their lives.”

Oh, the poor dears. How ****** horrible for them to have to live with the fact that they are rapists.

Seriously. What. The. ****.

 

[Somthing Witty]

I had thought this kind of sentiment was well and truly buried...

The assumption, on both sides, often seems to be talking about a woman's choice of clothing is somehow excusing the attacker. Something along the lines of: Well, maybe he wouldn't have done it if it weren't for this...

However, if the rapist was guaranteed to attack, I wouldn't think investigating what leads them to discern between potential targets would be construed as victim-blaming.

 

[Rufo]

I'd feel very, very, very uncomfortable in any environment where there was even the slightest implication that the only thing preventing a rape from occuring was that women dressed modestly. If people want to prevent others from doing terrible things to them by locking their doors, changing the way they dress or avoiding eye contact, that's fine, but if I was in a situation where that was considered necessary, I'd be more worried about why it was so.

Regarding the argument in the OP: Am I getting this wrong, or does this basically boil down to that students will be safe from sexual assault in "some areas" of school because of a dress code? Is it unreasonable to expect that students should be safe from sexual assault in most areas of the school without a dress code?

 

[Cainkane1]

This story nicely summarizes the sentiment you hear from time to time concerning rape victims.



That quote is from a Florida state representative arguing in support of a dress code bill. The bill or its contents are not my main issue, however. Even the question of "how was she dressed?" places an implicit portion of the blame on the victim. As if I, as a man, cannot control myself whenever I see a woman dressed a certain way and transform Voltron-style into a rapist.

What are your thoughts on this sort of sentiment? Personally, it disgusts me, but I'd love to hear some other opinions on it.

Muslims who rape European women say this all the time. It happens all the time. The gang of boys who raped that 11 year old girl should never be released from prison.

 

[geni]

Oh, the poor dears. How ****** horrible for them to have to live with the fact that they are rapists.

Seriously. What. The. ****.

I suspect you are missreading it. The statement is entirely consistent with the position that there is nothing they can do in future that will excuse their actions and if any of them have or aquire even a passing sense of conventional morality that alone with constitute some level of punishment.

 

[Roma]

Oh, the poor dears. How ****** horrible for them to have to live with the fact that they are rapists.

Seriously. What. The. ****.

Yes Quarnos I think you interpreted that sentiment exactly right.

I interpreted it to mean something like:
"How horrible that these wonderful young men will have their whole lives ruined because of that little tramp".

And of course none of this would have happened if that little tramps mother and father had been better parents.

 

[geni]

Muslims who rape European women say this all the time.

Stats to back this up?

It happens all the time. The gang of boys who raped that 11 year old girl should never be released from prison.

It is statisticaly improbable that a group of 18 is made up purely of psychopaths. We know that at least some of those involved were still at school. So it looks like we have a rather extreme case of peer pressure. Seperate them and it should be possible to rehabilitate them in a few years.

 

[bookitty]

Holy $@!#.

From that article:




Oh, the poor dears. How ****** horrible for them to have to live with the fact that they are rapists.

Seriously. What. The. ****.

Yeah, that quote pretty much made me feel like your avatar.

 

[bookitty]

Stats to back this up?



It is statisticaly improbable that a group of 18 is made up purely of psychopaths. We know that at least some of those involved were still at school. So it looks like we have a rather extreme case of peer pressure. Seperate them and it should be possible to rehabilitate them in a few years.

I doubt this was just peer-pressure. The first location was interrupted, this group took the girl to a new location and continued the rape there. Even having reason to pause and review the situation was not enough to get them to stop. The attackers ranged in age, many were in their 20's. How do you propose to separate and rehabilitate a 27 year-old who participated in the gang rape of an 11 year-old girl?

I suggest prison and solitary confinement for all of them. Not a single boy or man who participated in this deserves any mercy.

 

[Bikewer]

From long years in police work, I know from personal experience and from crime reporting (as well as studies) that how the victim is dressed or presented has essentially no bearing on rape.
Rape is usually an impulsive crime of opportunity; the requirements are that the victim be available and easily intimidated.
Physical attractiveness is rarely considered.
Serial rapists, like the St. Louis area "South Side Rapist", committed his crimes after breaking into the house and surprising the victim at knifepoint in her bed. He couldn't even see them beforehand.

There are those who maintain that a woman who is confident enough to dress in a provocative manner is LESS likely to be assaulted.