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Merged nuclear power safe?

Aepervius said:
@bob that is not quite correct.

INES 5:
Impact on People and Environment
Limited release of radioactive *material likely to require i*mplementation of some planned* countermeasures. No, not as far as I read from the Japan report
Several deaths from *radiation. None

Impact on Radiological Barriers and Control
Severe damage to reactor core.No, not as far as we were told
Release of large quantities of radioactive material within an installation with a high probability of significant public exposure. This could arise from a major criticality accident or fireNo

As far as I can tell none of that apply, so sorry, but from what the japanese autorithy said, it is still a 4.
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I'm no expert, but I'd guess that "Severe damage to the reactor core" probably applies by now. That alone would make it level 5 (filling one criterion is enough).
 
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timhau said:
I'm no expert, but just off the top of my head I'd guess that "Severe damage to the reactor core" could well apply. That alone would make it level 5 (filling one criterion is enough).
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Unless I overlooked it - the INES level appears to be absent on today's JAIF estimates...
 
MattusMaximus said:
Did you miss the part where I asked for "actual, reliable confirmation"? :rolleyes:
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Right you are this chart is only estimates from JAIF.

http://bravenewclimate.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/tepco_status_4.jpg

Fuel integrity damaged or inknown in three reactors.

"recovering after dried up" for the reactor vessel level for the #2 reactor.

You are right that I might be jumping to conclusions that dried up equals on fire and totally melted probably compromising the integrity of the pressure vessel.


If there was a fire in a spent fuel pool, and there are no combustibles in a spent fuel pool except zirconium, and you gave me a fire hose and asked me to put the fire out, I think that would be the last thing I did.

This is far from over, I expect severe medical issues for the site staff.

For someone to be blogging on this issue, how much knowledge and experience do you have to be pontification on this issue.

Me, I speak BISCO, Chicago Bridge and Iron, and have picked up reactor vessel heads, (with a crane of course), worked on RCIC, HPCS, LPCS, RCIC and EMD emergency diesel generators. I have been on a core divider plate, lowered a co-worker down the fuel bundle transfer tube for inspection, and measured the gaps in the shoot out steel. I knew where all the piping shock absorbers for all the safety related system associated with a BWR-6.
I have uncrated and inspected fuel assemblies and competed post receipt assembly of same.
I could go on but that should give you an idea that I know what I am talking about.

It will be a 6 by the time it's over.
 
bobdroege7 said:
Yeah right,

If the rad levels are 60 mrem per hour at the site boundary, evacuation of the surrounding area would be considered the required countermeasre, just because they did it beforehand as a preventative measure doesn't mean it is not required now.

A reading like that at the site boundary would also indicate the release of a significant amount of radioactive material.

If significant has to be 0.1% of the core load, then no, we don't have reliable information to assess that.

But then again, the spent fuel pool was reported to be on fire, then put out, then on fire again.

And that is not contained.

Maybe the French guys know something about commercial nuclear power and the design and construction of the emergency safety systems involved.

I used to maintain these systems, I am not blowing hot air.
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I don't say that you don't know anything I am saying that in absence of concrete info you are blowing hot air:
0.6 mSv/h is not what I would call significant as it does not need evacuation of population or even significant containment measure outside of the reactor area. Remember this is at the site itself only. And yes my reading of the INES scales is that 0.1% is the significant amount. And as you say you have no info. No info and claiming this should be INES 5 then to me it is blowing hot air just like the french. You could be right, but you have no concrete info on that. As for the evacuation as this is a preventive measure you cannot take it as evidence this is INES 5, and that was my point.

So if you have concrete info , please link it. Otherwise any assesement beyond what the Japanese asses is politic, hot air, and nothing else.

So we are back to : INES 4 Japan assesement until proven otherwise.
 
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timhau said:
I'm no expert, but I'd guess that "Severe damage to the reactor core" probably applies by now. That alone would make it level 5 (filling one criterion is enough).
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Depends on what one call serious damage. If it is serious enough to allow 0.1% of core fuel to escape, it does not seem to have yet happened. At the moment I will just see whether the japanese handle it, rather than speculate without info.
 
Really wish European politicians would stop making pronouncements on the situation in Japan. Given that even the people on the ground seem to be struggling to know exactly what is going on I seriously doubt they have the inside track on the true situation.

I wonder exactly what their agenda is in making these statements?
 
Last of the Fraggles said:
Really wish European politicians would stop making pronouncements on the situation in Japan. Given that even the people on the ground seem to be struggling to know exactly what is going on I seriously doubt they have the inside track on the true situation.

I wonder exactly what their agenda is in making these statements?
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For germany I can tell you : in some region we have election next week end. I can imagine that they are trying to use the situation, or limiting political damage. On the french side I can only speculate.

ETA: correction my GF just said me it is actually in 2 weeks we vote.
 
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Last of the Fraggles said:
Really wish European politicians would stop making pronouncements on the situation in Japan. Given that even the people on the ground seem to be struggling to know exactly what is going on I seriously doubt they have the inside track on the true situation.

I wonder exactly what their agenda is in making these statements?
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From what I understand, it's an election year in Germany. That might explain some of the bloviating there.
 
Aepervius said:
0.6 mSv/h is not what I would call significant as it does not need evacuation of population or even significant containment measure outside of the reactor
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That level at the site boundary, which is significant.



I found a Greenpeace site saying another agency (not greenpeace) saying rad levels in a town 8 km away were 0.2 to 0.3 mSv/hr.

I will have to look for a better and direct source, but that level requires evacuation, and is frankly uninhabitable until levels are much lower.

If those levels are confirmed it means the evacuation is no longer a preventative measure.
 
bobdroege7 said:
I found a Greenpeace site saying another agency (not greenpeace) saying rad levels in a town 8 km away were 0.2 to 0.3 mSv/hr.

I will have to look for a better and direct source, but that level requires evacuation, and is frankly uninhabitable until levels are much lower.
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Yeah, that's something like 1000+ times normal background radiation. However, I'd like to see some other source than Greenpeace. I trust Greenpeace on nuclear stuff about as much as I'd trust the V.I. Lenin Institute on politics.
 
@bob If you find it please tell us, i went to the tepco and other web site , greenpeace(eta german one) , and nothing there.

The circus continue in germany : now they want to test *all* food , electronic stuff for radioactivity coming from japan.
 
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Aepervius said:
The circus continue in germany : now they want to test *all* food , electronic stuff for radioactivity coming from japan.
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Some years back, as I recall, when a couple of cases of mad cow disease found in a few cattle in North America, Japan stopped ALL beef imports from the U.S. and Canada.

So it would seem the kind of circus you're talking about is standard operating procedure. Only what the circus involves seems to change...
 
From Reuters:

"In the coming hours there could be further catastrophic events which could pose a threat to the lives of people on the island," Commissioner Guenther Oettinger told a committee of the European Parliament.

"There is as yet no panic, but Tokyo, with 35 million people, is the largest metropolis in the world," he said.

When asked, his spokeswoman said his prediction of a catastrophe in the hours ahead was not based on any specific privileged information.

Oettinger's experts are relying largely on a mixture of reports from the International Atomic Energy Agency and the international media to monitoring Japan's nuclear crisis.
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Dear Germans, I hope you're not offended when I tell you this: your commissioner is a tool.
 
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MattusMaximus said:
From what I understand, it's an election year in Germany. That might explain some of the bloviating there.
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I was talking to a German colleague today who is out here for the outage.

He tells me it is indeed elections soon and if the Greens win then it's goodbye to the nuclear program.

If the Greens lose, then it's carry on up the Khyber.
 
timhau said:
They may be correct. A nuclear explosion is a really nasty thing. I can't think of worse things off the top of my head.

What does this have to do with the accident at the Fukushima plant?
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Aha....irony.

They actually think it might happen at the plant.

They are dead serious.
 
Aepervius said:
@bob If you find it please tell us, i went to the tepco and other web site , greenpeace(eta german one) , and nothing there.

The circus continue in germany : now they want to test *all* food , electronic stuff for radioactivity coming from japan.
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When Chernoble burned, I worked for a testing lab that analysed environmental samples for various nuclear power plants in the U.S. We got a contract with the USDA to analyse foods from europe such as Polish hams, Pate, spices, etc.

The hams and such were clean, but the spice crops ran "hot." (i.e. there were detectable isotopes in the gamma specrum).
 
bobdroege7 said:
A BWR-6 has a drywell and a Containment building rated at 30 and 15 psi, if memory serves.
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What are you refering to as a "drywell?"

I hope that your definition of the term is different than mine.

To me a drywell is a "dry" boring deep into the earth for disposal of liquid wastes.
 
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