Merged 8.8 quake in Sendai, Japan

[Skeptic Ginger]

The P waves travel at about 9km/s. It will reach the first sensor in 2-3 minutes but that gives you no information about the quake (except if you have a 3 axis seismometer you can get a vector to the quake by looking at the first arrival). The S wave is typically used to compute magnitude. S waves travel at only half the speed of the P waves. If you calculate the magnitude from a single station you could get a misleading result. It is necessary to get measurements from multiple azimuths around the epicenter to properly determine the orientation of the event and therefore the actual magnitude. Depth information comes from the more distant stations out to about 30 degrees.

The 20 minute delay is what I was told is typical for the earthquakes for this event in Japan. Generally, the delay will be up to 30 minutes for world wide events.

ETA: Within the US where there is a higher density network, the delay should be closer to 5 minutes. If you need a faster response, you need a local network like they have in Japan and other high seismicity regions and probably need to accept a lower accuracy of data (ie: you know the event is close and big but don't have an exact location or magnitude).

You got nothing, Dan. You've posted info on "earthquake notification". That is an email service, not when quakes are posted on the site.

You can receive earthquake notifications for any earthquakes located by the ANSS/NEIC (Advanced National Seismic System/National Earthquake Information Center) in the U.S. and around the World.

The USGS report of the aftershocks is in near real time: Current Asia area activity list.

Maps are updated whenever a new earthquake has been located.

The news media are reacting to tsunami warning sirens and word of mouth. USGS site is direct and more likely to be accurate. You are arguing the news media was more reliable. Think about it.

 

[Undesired Walrus]

Slightly (well, largely) off topic, but does anyone know the reason why Japan's Prime Minister's resign so frequently? I believe the last parliament had four, and this one already has already had two. The last one resigned because he broke a campaign promise. If the rest of the world's leaders did that we'd have many leaving office after a few days!

Is it a cultural thing?

 

[gumboot]

Slightly (well, largely) off topic, but does anyone know the reason why Japan's Prime Minister's resign so frequently? I believe the last parliament had four, and this one already has already had two. The last one resigned because he broke a campaign promise. If the rest of the world's leaders did that we'd have many leaving office after a few days!

Is it a cultural thing?

Okay I'm going to preface this with a huge disclaimer because I don't know much about Japanese culture myself, but someone once explained it to me by comparing the Japanese and German responses to the end of WW2.

In European cultural tradition, when you do wrong you make ammends to those you wronged by expression of regret, perhaps an apology, reparations, etc. You acknowledge you did wrong, commit to avoiding making the same mistake, and then move on. Often the way to heal the wounds is to in fact be allowed to continue what you were doing, and demonstrate how much better you do it now.

In Japanese culture, by contrast, if you have done wrong, to maintain face you should remove yourself from said duty - traditionally I suppose this meant more permanently - by committing ritual suicide if the "mistake" was severe enough. But perhaps these days resigning is sufficient. The notion that you could accept a wrong, learn from it, but keep progressing ahead doesn't seem to fit as well into their cultural ideals.

That would seem to explain such a phenomenon, and it all sounds plausible to me, though I don't know how accurate it is.

 

[Soapy Sam]

You might want to buy your potassium iodine before the stores run out.

Local stores see rush for iodine tablets in wake of damage to Japanese nuclear plants

That story is from Eugene, OR.

Iodicy.

 

[Belz...]

BTW Belz, I just noticed something. Your avatar is the flag of Imperial Japan.

Imperial Navy, actually. I just looked cooler and more distinctive than a red sun.

 

[Belz...]

Anyone in the building will get a large dose of radiation. Nasty radioactive stuff will get into the atmosphere and drift with the wind. Out to sea if we are lucky, towards populated areas if we are not.

That's if containment was breached.

 

[MattusMaximus]

You might want to buy your potassium iodine before the stores run out.

Local stores see rush for iodine tablets in wake of damage to Japanese nuclear plants

That story is from Eugene, OR.

Good grief, as if things aren't bad enough, now the media is going to start covering the "panic story" that they helped to create

Btw,
here's the latest update from the World Nuclear News. Some points of note...

... Radiation levels on the edge of the plant compound briefly spiked at 8217 microsieverts per hour but later fell to about a third that.

In line with the theory that non-condensed gases in the torus will be released fairly promptly and not replenished at the same rate, it is possible that the radiation release - at least via this route - will dimininsh and stabilise.

And on the issue of containment:

A close watch is being kept on the radiation levels to ascertain the status of containment. As a precaution Tokyo Electric Power Company has evacuated all non-essential personnel from the unit. The company's engineers continue to pump seawater into the reactor pressure vessel in an effort to cool it.

A message recieved from Tepco at about 5pm said the primary containment vessel around the reactor and secondary containment provided by the reactor building "show no significant change."

And about that fire:

... Kan's spokesman Noriyuki Shikata said that there had been "a sign of leakage" while firefighters were at work, "but we have found out the fuel is not causing the fire." The fire is now reported extinguished. The International Atomic Energy Agency did confirm that the fire had taken place in the used fuel storage pool.

Concerning evacuation:

Kan has requested that evacuation from a 20 kilometer radius is completed and those between 20-30 kilometers should stay indoors. He said his advice related to the overall picture of safety developments at Fukushima Daiichi, rather than those at any individual reactor unit.

Shikata added that radiation levels near the reactors had reached levels that would affect human health. It is thought that the fire had been the major source of radiation.

Note that it says "radiation levels near the reactors had reached" (as in, past tense), and the fire is now out.

 

[MattusMaximus]

That's if containment was breached.

Which seems, based upon current evidence, to not be the case.

ETA: That is, containment hasn't been breached. At least, not in any significant sense.

 

[Soapy Sam]

Which seems, based upon current evidence, to not be the case.

ETA: That is, containment hasn't been breached. At least, not in any significant sense.

Your persistent refusal to gibber...disturbs me.

 

[Last of the Fraggles]

Imperial Navy, actually. I just looked cooler and more distinctive than a red sun.

I was thinking about pulling you up on this but it didn't seem particularly important or appropriate in the circumstances. You do know about the connotations in certain parts of the world of this flag?

 

[DC]

Which seems, based upon current evidence, to not be the case.

ETA: That is, containment hasn't been breached. At least, not in any significant sense.

so you know more than the Jepanese that are actially there......

this is starting to look silly for the JREF know it all crowd.....

 

[Soapy Sam]

DC- the problem seems not to be understanding how reactors work or fail, but knowing what emerging information is accurate.

 

[DC]

DC- the problem seems to be not understanding how reactors work or fail, but knowing what emerging information is accurate.

yeah and who to believe, some know it alls on JREF or reputable news outlets?

i stick to the known news outlets. i dont take all they report as trueth, but i trust them far more than some dudes on the internet.....

 

[Last of the Fraggles]

DC- the problem seems to be not understanding how reactors work or fail, but knowing what emerging information is accurate.

I think its a little bit of everything. I consider myself fairly scientifically literate but I'm struggling to follow this story well and to know exactly what the threat is here. Partly because I don't know enough about nuclear reactors to be sure of what's safe and what's not and partly becuase nobody in the media is doing a good job of reporting factually and informatively.

I actually find this with a lot of scientific issues, there isn't much middle ground. You get the mass media hyperbole and ignorance countered with a 45 page in-depth technical document that makes little sense to the layman.

We are very poorly catered for in terms of good quality informative scientific communication from anywhere.

 

[DC]

I think its a little bit of everything. I consider myself fairly scientifically literate but I'm struggling to follow this story well and to know exactly what the threat is here. Partly because I don't know enough about nuclear reactors to be sure of what's safe and what's not and partly becuase nobody in the media is doing a good job of reporting factually and informatively.

I actually find this with a lot of scientific issues, there isn't much middle ground. You get the mass media hyperbole and ignorance countered with a 45 page in-depth technical document that makes little sense to the layman.

We are very poorly catered for in terms of good quality informative scientific communication from anywhere.

it has nothing to do with scientific knowledge, it is about is the vessel is broken as it was reported by the Japanese Authorities. the news media cannot do anything other than give us the information they get.
nobody is able to take a look at the vessel other than the people actually working at the site. and they reported the vessel was damaged at the last explosion and that radiation levels are rising.
thats the latest news i have been hearing,
but here on JREF some wannabe experts claim, oph its nothing....... the media is fearmongering etc etc. laughable.

 

[JihadJane]

Your persistent refusal to gibber...disturbs me.

It's also possible to overdose on anti-gibber (sometimes known as "smug")!


~~~~~~~~~~~


'Japan nuclear crisis and tsunami - live updates':

"The radiation levels at Fukushima Daiichi are now too high for staff from the Tokyo Electric Power Company, which operates the nuclear power plant, to stay in control rooms there, according to Kyodo news."

Update: "Confusing reports regarding the level of radiation at Fukushima – earlier we heard Kyodo news report that levels were too high for staff to stay in control rooms, now the International Atomic Energy Agency says that the level of radiation 'has been decreasing' at the site."

 

[Last of the Fraggles]

the news media cannot do anything other than give us the information they get.
nobody is able to take a look at the vessel other than the people actually working at the site. and they reported the vessel was damaged at the last explosion and that radiation levels are rising.
thats the latest news i have been hearing,
but here on JREF some wannabe experts claim, oph its nothing....... the media is fearmongering etc etc. laughable.

If the bit in bold was actually what news media did we wouldn't be having this conversation. What they actually do is take the information they get, regurgitate it in a sexed up fashion and then ask people who may or may not know what they are talking about to speculate on what might be the case based on insufficient information.

Your wish to dismiss the 'wannabe experts' on here is fine but you do realise that the news media is presented by people who are neither experts nor have any desire to 'wannabe' one and the 'experts' they wheel in to talk about such things are not only 'wannabe experts' but often 'wannabe experts with an agenda'

The correct answer to many of the questions asked may currently be 'we don't know' (but I suspect in many cases we actually do know quite a bit) but I'm not sure how you get from there to the idea that the people on the TV know what the are talking about and the people here don't. I've found this thread and others here very helpful, and I've learned that 9 times out of 10 the people of JREF actually do know what they are talking about moreso than just about any news media.

 

[DC]

If the bit in bold was actually what news media did we wouldn't be having this conversation. What they actually do is take the information they get, regurgitate it in a sexed up fashion and then ask people who may or may not know what they are talking about to speculate on what might be the case based on insufficient information.

Your wish to dismiss the 'wannabe experts' on here is fine but you do realise that the news media is presented by people who are neither experts nor have any desire to 'wannabe' one and the 'experts' they wheel in to talk about such things are not only 'wannabe experts' but often 'wannabe experts with an agenda'

The correct answer to many of the questions asked may currently be 'we don't know' (but I suspect in many cases we actually do know quite a bit) but I'm not sure how you get from there to the idea that the people on the TV know what the are talking about and the people here don't. I've found this thread and others here very helpful, and I've learned that 9 times out of 10 the people of JREF actually do know what they are talking about moreso than just about any news media.

News channels actually invite real experts and not some bigmouthed JREFers.

 

[Stray Cat]

News channels actually invite real experts and not some bigmouthed JREFers.

You don't think there's at least a possibility that the news media will 'find an expert who agrees with their agenda'?

I'm not suggesting any deep embedded CT here, but you are presented with a very narrow PoV on news programmes (some more than others).

Here on the forum, if someone says something incorrect, they can expect to be corrected, talking back to your telly shouting at the expert that some sub editor/researcher has phoned to come on a give an opinion is slightly less likely to reveal any incorrect information.

 

[DC]

You don't think there's at least a possibility that the news media will 'find an expert who agrees with their agenda'?

I'm not suggesting any deep embedded CT here, but you are presented with a very narrow PoV on news programmes (some more than others).

Here on the forum, if someone says something incorrect, they can expect to be corrected, talking back to your telly shouting at the expert that some sub editor/researcher has phoned to come on a give an opinion is slightly less likely to reveal any incorrect information.

what is the Agenda of Swiss national TV? what is the agenda of German TV stations? what is the agenda of swiss newspapers?

i see no fearmongering, but i also see no downplaying like here on JREF.