"Do the orders still stand?" - Person identified

[Dog Town]

The book is for my kids and I really could give a rats ass if anyone buys it or not.

Well, I certainly look forward to reading it. Thank you for all your hard work.

 

[gumboot]

You see, this is what both sides of the aisle have in common, when it gets uncomfortable, you both start accusing the messenger of 'misrepresenting the data'

You did misrepresent the data. Nowhere at all on that USSS log note does "50 miles" appear. The furthest distance citation is 30 miles. Do you deny this?

If you deny this, you're just outright lying, or can't read, or whatever. If you accept what I am saying is true (and anyone who can read can readily confirm I am telling the truth) would you care to explain why you said:

who in the FAA was watching AAL77 and reporting it to SS when it was still 50 miles out?

You have exactly zero evidence that anyone in the FAA was watching AAL77 and reporting it to the USSS when it was 50 miles from Washington DC. Zero.

(And indeed there's ample evidence they had absolutely no idea whatsoever where it was at that time, although they at least suspected it might be hijacked and headed to an unknown target on the East Coast)

(lying) and stating stuff like you were actually there with leaps of speculation.

No speculation involved. We know from countless sources that the FAA did not have radar contact on AA77 at 0930. Nor on any other missing aircraft at the time. Therefore the report from the FAA, recorded by the USSS in the log at 0930 of an aircraft headed to Washington DC cannot have been based on a radar return. That's basic deductive reasoning.

You're entire premise is based on crow-barring two admittedly similar (but ultimately different) incidents together into a single event. To do so you have to ignore a screed of points that clearly indicate they are not the same event, and further have to invent scenarios for which there's not even a scrap of evidence (such as someone mysteriously in the FAA having access to radar contact with AA77 while American Airlines, NORAD, and every ATC facility in the FAA had no idea where it was).

The adult, and responsible thing to do at this point is just to admit that you're wrong. Because no matter what you might thing, and no matter how much you might think the similarity of the Mineta countdown, AA77s flight path, and the USSS notes is suspicious, the reality is Norman Mineta did not witness a conversation in the bunker under the White House regarding unknown orders in relation to AA77.

We may never learn what that conversation was actually about, or when it actually occured, but we can determine pretty conclusively that it was not AA77, and it did not occur at 0925, or even prior to 0937.

 

[funk de fino]

You guys have danced all around the big issue and focused on Mineta. The issue for me is who in the FAA was watching AAL77 and reporting it to SS when it was still 50 miles out? Isn't the 'official' FAA story that O'Brien spotted the plane first and set off the alarm bells to SS and DCA with the old 'six miles out' scenario?

No, no, no. The Mineta crap is not even worth looking at. You are better tha this.

 

[funk de fino]

So now I am a moron

If you look at the rest of my post and ignore it, then you decide.

Minetas own testimony debunks the whole thing.

 

[moorea34]

In the same document:

09:44 FAA reports current hijacking of AA77

 

[Brainster]

I wonder if this is a reconstructed timeline that someone on the Secret Service attempted to compile shortly afterwards, not a contemporaneous timeline. Numerous timelines have both Mineta's account (supposedly of Flight 77) and the Libby and others account of Flight 93 being X miles out, and then X-20 miles out, etc. For example, this timeline at the Washington Post:

Transportation Secretary Norman Y. Mineta, summoned by the White House to the bunker, was on an open line to the Federal Aviation Administration operations center, monitoring Flight 77 as it hurtled toward Washington, with radar tracks coming every seven seconds. Reports came that the plane was 50 miles out, 30 miles out, 10 miles out-until word reached the bunker that there had been an explosion at the Pentagon.

And later in the same timeline:

In the White House bunker, a military aide approached the vice president.

"There is a plane 80 miles out," he said. "There is a fighter in the area. Should we engage?"

"Yes," Cheney replied without hesitation.

Around the vice president, Rice, deputy White House chief of staff Joshua Bolten and I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, Cheney's chief of staff, tensed as the military aide repeated the question, this time with even more urgency. The plane was now 60 miles out. "Should we engage?" Cheney was asked.

"Yes," he replied again.

As the plane came closer, the aide repeated the question. Does the order still stand?

The WaPo article makes it clear that this later account is about Flight 93.

John, are there any details accompanying the transcript as to what it specifically represents?

 

[Reheat]

I wonder if this is a reconstructed timeline that someone on the Secret Service attempted to compile shortly afterwards, not a contemporaneous timeline.

The notes that John posted were from NARA. That stuff on NARA is from the 9/11 Commission Staff; notes and such made during their investigation. In fact, if you search NARA documents you might find the same handwriting appearing again.

 

[Brainster]

The notes that John posted were from NARA. That stuff on NARA is from the 9/11 Commission Staff; notes and such made during their investigation. In fact, if you search NARA documents you might find the same handwriting appearing again.

According to Victoria Ashley (aka Victronix, aka Mrs Jim Hoffman), the notes were made by 9/11 Commission staffer Miles Kara. But they are supposedly made from a "Secret Service Timeline Unclass Extract" per the notation made by Kara at the top of the first page.

 

[beachnut]

According to Victoria Ashley (aka Victronix, aka Mrs Jim Hoffman), the notes were made by 9/11 Commission staffer Miles Kara. But they are supposedly made from a "Secret Service Timeline Unclass Extract" per the notation made by Kara at the top of the first page.

Is that the 911 Research nut? Poor Jim has long list of anomalies, a list of his delusions on 911. Since 2003 he has failed to figure out 911 given the evidence. He makes up anomalies, due to ignorance. He has a delusion his claims are more rational than the nuts who think there was no plane at the Pentagon. There is no big tent for 911 truth, just a village over populated with idiots.

The "orders still stand" anomaly, a failed attempt to manufacture woo, a failed attempt to give birth to the stillborn 911 truth movement.

 

[Reheat]

But they are supposedly made from a "Secret Service Timeline Unclass Extract" per the notation made by Kara at the top of the first page.

Yes, I know that. But, we still don't know if any info was added based on knowledge by the person making the notes. And we don't know the source and timing of the distance info either. In other words, were the SS notes taken real time by the SS? If so, where did they get the info and did the note taker add to them? These are all unanswered questions making this of questionable valuable for anything other than speculation.

 

[Dog Town]

Excuse me John,but this could use some clarification.
Are you saying they admit to some recordings, besides parking lot cams existing? If so can you be more specific? Who exactly has said this, and by what means? How exactly is this being "implied", that some were given to the FBI? I feel as if you're dancing the dance of the vague here. Maybe it's just me.

Thanks in advance for any information you can provide.

One more time, with feelings. C'mon John, only you seem to have this answer.

 

[Epic]

It seems to me that this document speaks more against Minetas timeline than confirms it. Since according to the document secret service learned that planes were heading to Washington at 9:30. So they had no reason to move Cheney to PEOC before that.

 

[achimspok]

The issue for me is who in the FAA was watching AAL77 and reporting it to SS when it was still 50 miles out? ...

It is reported that the US Secret Service is using an “air surveillance system” called Tigerwall. This serves to “ensure enhanced physical security at a high-value asset location by providing early warning of airborne threats.” Tigerwall “provides the Secret Service with a geographic display of aircraft activity and provides security personnel long-range camera systems to classify and identify aircraft. Sensor data from several sources are fused to provide a unified sensor display.”
Source: http://web.archive.org/web/20031107010251/www.scitechweb.com/inhousereport/00navy/00spawar.html

Counterterrorism “tsar” Richard Clarke will describe that on 9/11, the Secret Service had “a system that allowed them to see what FAA’s radar was seeing.”
Source: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0743260244/centerforcoop-20

Barbara Riggs, a future deputy director of the Secret Service who is in its Washington, DC headquarters on 9/11, will describe the Secret Service “monitoring radar” during the attacks.
Source: http://pccw.alumni.cornell.edu/news/newsletters/spring06/riggs.html
Source: http://milkhouse-mouse.blogspot.com/2006/11/secret-services-air-surveillance.html

 

[achimspok]

So I ran into the White House and someone said you have to be briefed by d*** Clarke of the National Security Council.

So I went into the Situation Room and he briefly told me what was going on, and then he said you've got to be down in the PEOC with the Vice President. I said I don't know where the PEOC is, the Presidential Emergency Operations Center, and there was a Secret Service agent standing there, and he says, "I'll take you over there right away."

So we went running down and went into the PEOC which is the bunker, as you know, under the White House.

I started to establish a direct line to the FAA to find out what was going on, and the Vice President and I were across from each other on the conference room table in the PEOC, and about this time someone came in and said this was -- when I finally got in there, it was probably about 9:27, is what I recall.

And a little later on, someone said, "Mr. Vice President, there's a plane 50-miles out." So I was talking to Monte Belger, the Deputy Director of the FAA, and I said, "Monte, what do you have 50-miles out?"

He said, "Well, we have a target, bogey, on the radar, but the transponder's been turned off, so we have no identification of this aircraft. We don't know who it is. We don't know what altitude it's at, speed or anything else. All we're doing is watching with the sweep of the radar, the dot moving from position to position."

So then someone came in, the same person came in and said, "Mr. Vice President, it -- the plane's 30-miles out." So I said, "Monte, can you see it, and where is it in relationship to the ground?"

He said, "Well, that's difficult to really determine. I would guess it's somewhere between Great Falls and National Airport, coming what they call the DRA, the down river approach."

And so then the person came in and said, "Mr. Vice President, the plane's ten-miles out," and so I said, "Monte, where is it?" and he said, "Well, I'm not really sure but I'd be guessing somewhere maybe between the USA Today building and, and National Airport."

And then pretty soon he said, "Oh-oh, we just lost the target." And so a few moments later, someone came in and said, "Mr. Vice President, there's been an explosion at the Pentagon."

So I said, "Monte, is there something -- can you identify it as being at the Pentagon?" He said, "No, we can't really pinpoint it like that."

Then about that time someone broke into our phone conversation and said, "Mr. Secretary, we've had a call from an Arlington County police officer saying that he saw an American Airlines airplane go into the Pentagon."

At that point I said, "Monte, bring all the airplanes down..."
Source: http://www.msnbc.com/modules/91102/interviews/mineta.asp?0cb=-31a105678&cp1=1
Source: http://911woodybox.blogspot.com/2007/10/statements-of-norman-mineta-chronology.html

Seems like the USSS informed the VP, the VP informed Mineta (or he just heard the information), Mineta informed the FAA (or they just heard the information) ...

 

[Reheat]

Counterterrorism “tsar” Richard Clarke will describe that on 9/11, the Secret Service had “a system that allowed them to see what FAA’s radar was seeing.”

Well, you have finally identified the all powerful, all encompassing knowledge of the NWO. Viola! It is a part of the Secret Service.....

According to his links here Tigerwall links to the entire FAA Radar system and it's portable. That's why Bush said he saw AA 11 strike the WTC.

Everyone employed by the NWO should immediately take cover, this twoofer has us fingered.

 

[Reheat]

Seems like the USSS informed the VP, the VP informed Mineta (or he just heard the information), Mineta informed the FAA (or they just heard the information) ...

This issue has been literally beaten to death. How you arrive at this conclusion based on the material you've posted is anyone's guess. Vivid imagination and twoofer mentality are perhaps the best explanation.

I think this article is a better analysis of this entire subject matter to include Mineta's confusing testimony.


http://www.oredigger61.org/?p=3785

 

[Andy_Ross]

it goes around and around. Wait a couple of months and the truthers will have forgotten this entire thread or at least everything after the OP and will start it all over again.

 

[BCR]

Excuse me John,but this could use some clarification.
Are you saying they admit to some recordings, besides parking lot cams existing? If so can you be more specific? Who exactly has said this, and by what means? How exactly is this being "implied", that some were given to the FBI? I feel as if you're dancing the dance of the vague here. Maybe it's just me.

Thanks in advance for any information you can provide.

You know, I must have been at this too long because I am losing patience. I gave you the summary of several years of FOIA (administrative and judicial) activity by Scott Bingham, Judicial Watch and myself. The source is the US Navy, DoD and FBI. If it sounds vague, that is because it is. Not my fault. You are welcome to start the FOIA process yourself and perhaps in a few years come up with a better answer.

 

[Dog Town]

You know, I must have been at this too long because I am losing patience.

Sad that. Maybe you should take a break. Good luck to you.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Truthers never take a break