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9/11, Truth, and the Masochistic Lie

Myriad

The Clarity Is Devastating
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The following essay was referenced in another thread:



Rancourt's essay said:
Is it so difficult to believe that the complex and highly successful military attack on US soil that was 911 (levelling three gigantic sky scrapers, blasting a hole into the Pentagon, and destroying four commercial jets and their passengers) was not orchestrated by a religious zealot from a cave in Afghanistan and executed by failed Cessna pilot trainees with box cutters? Or that those who measurably benefited in the trillions had nothing to do with it?
(emphasis added)


Here's the problem. Much of my knowledge of 9/11, like my knowledge of almost everything in the world, is indirect. For instance, I believe based on the available evidence that Osama bin Laden is an Islamic jihadist reactionary who has used terrorism to advance his agenda, and not a CIA agent or a fictional character invented by the CIA. But, I could not absolutely disprove those latter notions on my own account. I haven't met him, I didn't eyewitness any of his historically notable actions, and I haven't personally combed the entire world looking for him. Even if I had, how could I know for sure? There is at least some room for doubt.

But, I can read history books and news accounts and see for myself what those accounts say about bin Laden. I can see for myself that "the official story" does not claim that the 9/11 attacks were orchestrated from a cave in Afghanistan. I have no first-hand information about how the 9/11 attacks were planned, but I do have first-hand information about what is and is not printed in books. So I know, for absolutely certain, that "orchestrated from a cave in Afghanistan" is a fabrication, and a fabrication presented not by "officials" or "mainstream journalists" or "academics" but by Rancourt himself.

As Rancourt himself aptly put it: "What the hell?"

What is a Masochistic Lie?

The phenomenon described above comes up often enough, especially in the claims and writings of 9/11 conspiracism, that I want to give it a name and try to understand it more deeply. I hereby define:

Masochistic Lie (n.) A lie that has absolutely no possibility of being believed, due to contradicting the immediate and direct experience of the person to whom it's addressed.

A Masochistic Lie is not merely a transparent lie. A transparent lie might be illustrated by, say, Billy in a Family Circus cartoon saying "I didn't eat that cake" with chocolate cake smeared all around his mouth. In that case there is clear evidence that weighs strongly against the lie, but there is no absolute certainty. Perhaps a wild animal entered the house, ate the cake, and subsequently escaped leaving no other trace, while Billy innocently smeared his mouth by eating a chocolate bar.

A Masochistic Lie would be more like Billy saying "I'm not holding a piece of cake" while holding a piece of cake.

Or, consider the cliche of a woman catching her lover kissing another woman, and he says: "It's not what it looks like." That's most likely a lie (in the real world), but not a masochistic lie. There is some doubt. In fact, a staple of romantic comedy is the contriving of circumstances in which it really isn't what it looks like, and the apparently cheating partner is actually innocent. To make it a masochistic lie he would have to say: "It doesn't look like what it looks like." That's a guaranteed lie with no possible doubt. Regardless of what it actually is, it certainly does look like what it looks like.

The Purpose of the Masochistic Lie

The nature of the Masochistic Lie becomes clearer when we look closer at whom a lie is actually directed at.

Consider the case of a false accusation against an individual. Except in rare circumstances involving diminished mental capacity or memory loss, every false accusation is a Masochistic Lie from the perspective of the person accused.

And yet, deliberate false accusations are common enough. There must be some point to them, some advantage for the liar to gain. And of course, there is. The lie of a false accusation is not actually directed at the accused. A false accusation will not convince anyone that they are guilty, if they are in fact innocent. (Again, barring diminished mental capacity, or deliberate additional measures to induce same, as in brainwashing.) But it may very well convince others whose judgment of guilt or innocence carries weight. That is the liar's goal. When you hear a Masochistic Lie, it is a near certainty that you are not the person actually being lied to. You might be the intended target or victim of the lie, but the lie is designed to convince someone else besides you.

In the case of Rancourt's essay, the format, style, vocabulary, and presentation creates the impression of addressing fellow members of "the intelligentsia" about their own shortcomings. But to actual academics, historians, and journalists, the whole thing is one Masochistic Lie after another. We can expect, for example, that no person in that target group who has engaged significantly with the topic of 9/11 history will be fooled by the false assertion that the consensual narrative claims "orchestrated from a cave."

From this we can tell that the actual agenda is not reform from within, but to demonize "the intelligentsia" outside that supposed group. Despite the author's efforts to establish his own academic and scientific credentials, he is appealing to, and lying to, an anti-academic, anti-scientific, anti-intellectual audience.

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
Wow.
Nice dialectics!


We tend to quickly dismiss and then dislike Masochistic Lies, however they do have at least one nice upshot:

It enables us to identify their target audience as having certain properties.

In this case: Those who believe Rancourt, even to the extemt of repeating his M.L. elsewhere, can be immediately identified as non-academic, non-scientific, non-intellectual people.
 
There's nothing interesting about Rancourt's article. There's nothing about the cold hard facts of 9/11, only his own problem with authority, which is beyond the point.
 
Interesting post. You could have added more straw to the fire with Rancourt's opener by mentioning "failed Cessna pilot trainees," but as you say it's line after line of this stuff.

The caveman meme is much more pervasive amongst the truthy people; it's really religious dogma akin to the Apostle's Creed or Shahada. It's a magical incantation that takes you to truth-land.
 
http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/TPV3/Voices.php/2010/09/13/why-we-love-to-hate-conspiracy-theories-
Is it so difficult to believe that the complex and highly successful military attack on US soil that was 911 (levelling three gigantic sky scrapers, blasting a hole into the Pentagon, and destroying four commercial jets and their passengers) was not orchestrated by a religious zealot from a cave in Afghanistan and executed by failed Cessna pilot trainees with box cutters? Or that those who measurably benefited in the trillions had nothing to do with it?
Difficult?
1. Kill pilots
2. Crash aircraft into large buildings
Complex military attack, a cheap shot mugging pilots, crashing planes. Complex? Denis G. Rancourt can't memorize two steps = complex military attack.

Complex? Like remote control, fake video, fake evidene, fake DNA?

gigantic? gigantic targets, thus, the failed Cessna pilot could hit them? Failed Cessna pilot? Are those Balsamo's super pilots of woo?

intelligentsia - those who use evidence to form rational conclusions on 911?
 
I've just been thinking about the mental defect embodied in this line:

levelling three gigantic sky scrapers, blasting a hole into the Pentagon, and destroying four commercial jets and their passengers


He makes it sound like destroying the jets and killing the passengers was somehow a distinct act from the destruction of the buildings...."Okay, we wiped out the Twin Towers by crashing jets filled with passengers into them; but how will we get rid of these jets filled with passengers?!?!?"
 
I am reminded of the Truthers who repeatedly spout that "there are no photos of aircraft debris at the supposed Flight 93 crash site". We have one such Truther on this very forum. The rules prevent me from naming a name but regulars will know who it is.

Not a claim that photos of the debris are faked, or that the debris in the photos was "planted". But a claim that the photos themselves don't exist.

Flight93Engine.jpg


What I have to wonder is who does he think he is fooling at this point.
 
A great example of the M.L. can be found in the OP of this thread:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=203785
Talking about the towers here. My post in this thread got me thinking about the towers' cores and the argument that explosive demolition will be easily recognizable by its sound. Bedunkers typically refer to videos of controlled demolitions with the signature loud bang-bang-bang sounds of the detonations (although videos exist of CDs where the loud bangs are barely distinguishable from other kinds of noises, e.g.: the Stardust in Las Vegas).
...

The poster makes a patently false statement and goes on to provides the very evidence for the falsehood of his statement: The "loud bangs" that "are barely distinguishable from other kinds of noises" are of course the VERY LOUD explosions between 4:23 and 4:40 in that video.

In a later post, he relativizes that lie:
Actually, it was the fireworks I was referring to. The demolition sounds are not much louder than the fireworks which precedes them. (Certainly not "twice" as loud.)
...
Again, it is plain to see that he compares explosions with explosions. Since explosions are not "other kinds of noises" as explosions but indeed the very same kind of noise, the lie remains to be a lie, and it is in plain sight.
 
Here's the problem. Much of my knowledge of 9/11, like my knowledge of almost everything in the world, is indirect. For instance, I believe based on the available evidence that Osama bin Laden is an Islamic jihadist reactionary who has used terrorism to advance his agenda, and not a CIA agent or a fictional character invented by the CIA. But, I could not absolutely disprove those latter notions on my own account. I haven't met him, I didn't eyewitness any of his historically notable actions, and I haven't personally combed the entire world looking for him. Even if I had, how could I know for sure? There is at least some room for doubt.

I realize this is not the main point of your post, but I did want to comment on it. What you have hit on is the difference between a skeptic and a cynic. A skeptic demands reasonable proof before he believes something, but does not take it to the "I don't believe in the existence of the world," level. A cynic refuses to accept any proof, because there is always another layer of doubt they can use to paint over it.

Truthers are the ultimate cynics.
 
This is a very interesting idea. I had to read it several times to fully understand it's significant. I hope you keep thinking about this.

I have been bothered for a long time about the relationship between the so-called 'cult religions' of the 1980s and the recent rise of conspiracy theory groups. Organizations like Scientology had widespread appeal for a short time, but now seem to be running out of new members and money. This is probably especially true among educated people, as people become generally more sophisticated about their message and its cost. You point to a reason that's more than just calling Scientology 'stupid' by describing the internal mechanism by which the accept of such 'crazy' ideas becomes possible. You point to how the existence of more sophisticated critique addresses conspiracy theory.

The idea of a masochistic lie also helps understand why the intelligentsia of 911 conspiracy is so chronologically old. Griffin is in his 70s now. Rancourt is 54. Jones just turned 67. They represent an older, less sophisticated version of intellectual thought that can accommodate the lie.

All of this is in contrast with younger Truthers who are not well-educated, sophisticated or cosmopolitan. I suspect that for most of the Truthers in my studies, 911 conspiracy theory is not a lie of any sort. They sincerely believe AE911 is a professional lobby group and there is still widespread confusion about what hit the Pentagon. After all, these are people who believe vaccinating their children will kill them. So for them, there is no inconsistency that needs to be reconciled.
 
The following essay was referenced in another thread:




(emphasis added)


Here's the problem. Much of my knowledge of 9/11, like my knowledge of almost everything in the world, is indirect. For instance, I believe based on the available evidence that Osama bin Laden is an Islamic jihadist reactionary who has used terrorism to advance his agenda, and not a CIA agent or a fictional character invented by the CIA. But, I could not absolutely disprove those latter notions on my own account. I haven't met him, I didn't eyewitness any of his historically notable actions, and I haven't personally combed the entire world looking for him. Even if I had, how could I know for sure? There is at least some room for doubt.

But, I can read history books and news accounts and see for myself what those accounts say about bin Laden. I can see for myself that "the official story" does not claim that the 9/11 attacks were orchestrated from a cave in Afghanistan. I have no first-hand information about how the 9/11 attacks were planned, but I do have first-hand information about what is and is not printed in books. So I know, for absolutely certain, that "orchestrated from a cave in Afghanistan" is a fabrication, and a fabrication presented not by "officials" or "mainstream journalists" or "academics" but by Rancourt himself.

As Rancourt himself aptly put it: "What the hell?"

What is a Masochistic Lie?

The phenomenon described above comes up often enough, especially in the claims and writings of 9/11 conspiracism, that I want to give it a name and try to understand it more deeply. I hereby define:

Masochistic Lie (n.) A lie that has absolutely no possibility of being believed, due to contradicting the immediate and direct experience of the person to whom it's addressed.

A Masochistic Lie is not merely a transparent lie. A transparent lie might be illustrated by, say, Billy in a Family Circus cartoon saying "I didn't eat that cake" with chocolate cake smeared all around his mouth. In that case there is clear evidence that weighs strongly against the lie, but there is no absolute certainty. Perhaps a wild animal entered the house, ate the cake, and subsequently escaped leaving no other trace, while Billy innocently smeared his mouth by eating a chocolate bar.

A Masochistic Lie would be more like Billy saying "I'm not holding a piece of cake" while holding a piece of cake.

Or, consider the cliche of a woman catching her lover kissing another woman, and he says: "It's not what it looks like." That's most likely a lie (in the real world), but not a masochistic lie. There is some doubt. In fact, a staple of romantic comedy is the contriving of circumstances in which it really isn't what it looks like, and the apparently cheating partner is actually innocent. To make it a masochistic lie he would have to say: "It doesn't look like what it looks like." That's a guaranteed lie with no possible doubt. Regardless of what it actually is, it certainly does look like what it looks like.

The Purpose of the Masochistic Lie

The nature of the Masochistic Lie becomes clearer when we look closer at whom a lie is actually directed at.

Consider the case of a false accusation against an individual. Except in rare circumstances involving diminished mental capacity or memory loss, every false accusation is a Masochistic Lie from the perspective of the person accused.

And yet, deliberate false accusations are common enough. There must be some point to them, some advantage for the liar to gain. And of course, there is. The lie of a false accusation is not actually directed at the accused. A false accusation will not convince anyone that they are guilty, if they are in fact innocent. (Again, barring diminished mental capacity, or deliberate additional measures to induce same, as in brainwashing.) But it may very well convince others whose judgment of guilt or innocence carries weight. That is the liar's goal. When you hear a Masochistic Lie, it is a near certainty that you are not the person actually being lied to. You might be the intended target or victim of the lie, but the lie is designed to convince someone else besides you.

In the case of Rancourt's essay, the format, style, vocabulary, and presentation creates the impression of addressing fellow members of "the intelligentsia" about their own shortcomings. But to actual academics, historians, and journalists, the whole thing is one Masochistic Lie after another. We can expect, for example, that no person in that target group who has engaged significantly with the topic of 9/11 history will be fooled by the false assertion that the consensual narrative claims "orchestrated from a cave."

From this we can tell that the actual agenda is not reform from within, but to demonize "the intelligentsia" outside that supposed group. Despite the author's efforts to establish his own academic and scientific credentials, he is appealing to, and lying to, an anti-academic, anti-scientific, anti-intellectual audience.

Respectfully,
Myriad

This was quite a belly laugh.

As usual the duhbunking slant ignores all the telltale signs of lying by liars.

Somehow the OBL CIA vs the USSR connection means nothing.

Somehow the Bush administration advising that a 9/11 investigation wasn't really necessary meant nothing.

Somehow the initial 9/11 Commission allocation of $3 million wasn't a red flag that investigative foot dragging was afoot.

Somehow FEMA being available in NYC on 9/11 to direct the day wasn't like "Karch" Kiraly being available at a NJ gym to sub for me when I sprained my ankle.

Somehow war games on 9/11 with a hijacked planes scenario was happenstance and wasn't meant to impede our response to the events of the day.

and on and on and on and on.

PS
FEMA's presence was a lot like Ocean's Eleven sting where they were the "authorities" who showed up to steal the money.
 
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Picture-perfect example of a masochistic lie:

Oystein said:
Thirdly, the data in Harrit e.al., specifically Fig 10, shows clearly for all with eyes to see that Si and Al are bound to each other. There is not a mix of Al and Si, or Al and SiO2, there is clearly a chemical compound that contains BOTH Al and Si, and again, those with eyes to see, can clearly see that the distribution of Al and Si is the same as the distribution of those plates and stacks that look exactly like clay - which is a common word for aluminium silicate.

I can see that they are similar but different.

fig10alandsi.jpg

Chris7 wants us to believe that the distributions of Al and Si shown in these images are significantly different, that Si and Al are separate from each other.
 
This was quite a belly laugh.

As usual the duhbunking slant ignores all the telltale signs of lying by liars.

Somehow the OBL CIA vs the USSR connection means nothing.

Somehow the Bush administration advising that a 9/11 investigation wasn't really necessary meant nothing.

Somehow the initial 9/11 Commission allocation of $3 million wasn't a red flag that investigative foot dragging was afoot.

Somehow FEMA being available in NYC on 9/11 to direct the day wasn't like "Karch" Kiraly being available at a NJ gym to sub for me when I sprained my ankle.

Somehow war games on 9/11 with a hijacked planes scenario was happenstance and wasn't meant to impede our response to the events of the day.

and on and on and on and on.

PS
FEMA's presence was a lot like Ocean's Eleven sting where they were the "authorities" who showed up to steal the money.

Somehow Truther diehards keep picking spaghetti strands off the wall to prove the existence of a flying spaghetti monster instead of someone throwing a bowl of pasta, clinging to them like hoarded jewels to avoid the merest possibility that They Must Be Wrong.
 
I realize this is not the main point of your post, but I did want to comment on it. What you have hit on is the difference between a skeptic and a cynic. A skeptic demands reasonable proof before he believes something, but does not take it to the "I don't believe in the existence of the world," level. A cynic refuses to accept any proof, because there is always another layer of doubt they can use to paint over it.

Truthers are the ultimate cynics.

I don't think your use of the term "cynic" is quite correct.

Perhaps "nihilist" is better, but I think "pseudoskeptic" really is the only term that exactly covers your meaning.
 
This was quite a belly laugh.

As usual the duhbunking slant ignores all the telltale signs of lying by liars.

[words]
So you scoff at the post, but do not actually respond in any substantial manner, then present unrelated "facts".

Well, at least it's better than a one-liner.

Ironically, you use several masochistic lies in that post. The 9/11 investigation was the largest in FBI history, with something like two-thirds of the Bureau participating. And that's leaving aside everyone else who got in on the fun.

FEMA was in New York to do a drill. You can find people who knew this from before the attacks. Why would the government have them there for no apparent reason? Why would they do things that are more suspicious, not less?

And on and on.
 
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Bumping this!


From the legal reasons being discussed in this thread, in which the Alberta Court of Queen's Bench dismantles the Freeman on the Land nonsense, we find this (paragraph 77):


All these features appear necessary for gurus to
market OPCA schemes to their often desperate, ill-informed, mentally disturbed, or legally
abusive customers. This is crucial to understand the non-substance of any OPCA concept or
strategy. The story and process of a OPCA scheme is not intended to impress or convince the
Courts, but rather to impress the guru’s customer.
(Emphasis in the original!)


So the concept of the Masochistic Lie could be said to have achieved legal standing in Canada!
 
Every time I see this thread, I have to re-read the OP to try to understand what "The Masochistic Lie" is. It's never what I think it is. :o I still think Myriad's OP is interesting, but I haven't quite got the hang of it.

To me, a masochistic lie is a lie a CTist will repeat because it supports his fearful, paranoid, isolated, world-hating viewpoint.

It's a delusion that feeds his/her delusions.
 
Originally Posted by metamars
Homework: Why we love to hate conspiracy theories: 911 Truth as threat to the intelligentsia insult to one's intelligence by Denis Rancourt.

Fixed it.
 

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