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Stupid Christian Article on Evolution

You'll kindly note that a) the Mayr and Gould quotes say nothing about a term called "NeoDarwinism"

Wrong. Just because you don't know the term is a reference to the modern synthesis does not mean they didn't refer to it. Note the bolded part below:

The proponents of the synthetic theory maintain that all evolution is due to the accumulation of small genetic changes, guided by natural selection

You commented:

the Mayr and Gould quotes describe evolution as happening through the accumulation of small genetic changes guided by natural selection, but don't say a single thing about what that means (or doesn't mean) for the relative complexity of the organisms involved.

Note the part about "accumulation of small genetic changes." That's a statement referring to the organisms involved, stating they accumulate small genetic changes. Whether they start out with a lot or less does not matter in the context of the next immediate step, but the statement predicts a slow accumulation of genetic changes via natural selection.

So beginning with the first organism with DNA in it. It would evolve via natural selection acting on traits conferred due to small genetic changes, right?

They do mention natural selection.

How does that work?

It works by acting on morphological changes, right? No change in traits equals no ability of natural selection to select for them.

So you would expect small changes to accumulate along with accumulation of greater changes in traits. Please note the used the word "accumulate."

This is not what see as far as the data. It's a failed prediction.
 
But your quote doesn't say genes accumulate nor does it say complexity necessarily increases. You seem to have a hard time reading through your filters.

Maybe you didn't read it.

Evolutionary change is a shift of the frequency of genes in a population, and macroevolutionary trends come from gradual accumulation of small genetic changes.

"Gradual accumulation of genetic changes". What do you think the word "accumulation" there refers to?
 
"Gradual accumulation of genetic changes". What do you think the word "accumulation" there refers to?
That's not the word I think you are having trouble with. I think you simply can't understand that a change can be a loss of complexity.

What happens when you accumulate negative numbers?
 
That's not the word I think you are having trouble with. I think you simply can't understand that a change can be a loss of complexity.

That's why I quoted a paper saying there were "massive loss of genes in some animal lineages." I "can't understand" that even though it was part of what I stated.

Geesh.

Regardless, there are no negative numbers conceived of in the modern synthesis's claims of "a gradual accumulation" of genes. You don't want to admit they said "gradual accumulation"? That's your business, but don't waste my time.
 
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They said slow accumulation of changes. And you presented your quote about loss of genes as if it were some sort of surprise to "us". If Gould and Mayr were saying such things in 63 then it's not a surprise to "us" now.
 
That's why I quoted a paper saying there were "massive loss of genes in some animal lineages." I "can't understand" that even though it was part of what I stated.

Geesh.

Regardless, there are no negative numbers conceived of in the modern synthesis's claims of "a gradual accumulation" of genes. You don't want to admit they said "gradual accumulation"? That's your business, but don't waste my time.

Gradual accumulation of changes. Not genes, changes.

Changes.
 
Note the part about "accumulation of small genetic changes." That's a statement referring to the organisms involved, stating they accumulate small genetic changes. Whether they start out with a lot or less does not matter in the context of the next immediate step, but the statement predicts a slow accumulation of genetic changes via natural selection.

So beginning with the first organism with DNA in it. It would evolve via natural selection acting on traits conferred due to small genetic changes, right?

They do mention natural selection.

How does that work?

It works by acting on morphological changes, right? No change in traits equals no ability of natural selection to select for them.

So you would expect small changes to accumulate along with accumulation of greater changes in traits. Please note the used the word "accumulate."
Yes, changes accumulate. Not genes. Changes.

This is exactly what we see.
 
Nothing in the modern synthesis claims there's a gradual accumulation of genes.

Ok, in my world, I see the words gradual accumulation of "genetic changes".

I guess you don't see the word "genetic" in front of "changes."
 
No, gradual accumulation of "genetic changes." You do see the word "genetic" in front of "changes", don't you?

Yes, and genetic changes can mean the loss of genes, the alteration of genes, the reorganization of genes etc etc.

The gradual accumulation of genes does not mean the same thing as the gradual accumulation of genetic changes.

More changes =/= more genes.
 
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They said slow accumulation of changes. And you presented your quote about loss of genes as if it were some sort of surprise to "us". If Gould and Mayr were saying such things in 63 then it's not a surprise to "us" now.

No, I presented a peer-reviewed paper by working evolutionist scientist that stated the massive loss of genes was "surprising", and that stated it was "particularly surprising" to see the genetic complexity with genetic sequences corresponding to vertebrate nerve function, and how these things turn over common ideas on evolution. He comments in another link that one of those common mistaken ideas is the idea of genetic complexity going hand in hand with morphological complexity.

As far as you guys, I think you are too ignorant to be surprised as you'd have to actually understand evo theory in the first place.
 
rerun since so many didn't seem to catch it

However, Professor David Miller says its genetic complexity challenges the notion that life started out simple then evolved to become more sophisticated.

"There's this intrinsic tendency to think about a slow accumulation of complexity and a slow accumulation of genes which have allowed an increased morphological complexity in higher animals and what the coral genomes tell us is that that's completely wrong and that most genes were invented very early in animal evolution," he said.

http://www.jcu.edu.au/cgc/MillerHP.html
 
Yes. He's telling you that it's wrong. It's also not part of evolutionary theory. Nothing in the modern synthesis says there's a slow accumulation of genes.
 
Ok, in my world, I see the words gradual accumulation of "genetic changes".

I guess you don't see the word "genetic" in front of "changes."

Gradual . . . . . . . . . Gradual
Accumulation . . . . Accumulation
of Numeric . . . . . . . of
Changes . . . . . . . . numbers
--------------------------------------
1234567890 . . . . 1234567890
1134567800 . . . . 112345678900
1034567800 . . . . 110345678900
1034577800 . . . . 1103456778900
1044488800 . . . . 1103445678788900
0044488800 . . . . 01103445678788900
 
Here's a fun game: How long until randman can make a Bingo?

Creationist Bingo!

Regardless, there are no negative numbers conceived of in the modern synthesis's claims of "a gradual accumulation" of genes. You don't want to admit they said "gradual accumulation"? That's your business, but don't waste my time.
Another attempt to constrain the conversation to what YOU want to talk about, randman. The paper says "accumulations".

How can something accumulate changes but not genes? Well, lay ten pennies face up. Every second, flip one penny. After three seconds you've accumulated three changes. How many pennies do you have? Note that it doesn't matter if you flip the same one all three times--it's still three changes. And it's still ten pennies.

Antpo knocked the web-source for the quote. What do you think she is implying about the quote?

The source means nothing if the quote is accurate,
The last phrase here is the issue. Creationists love to cherry-pick quotes, as you've so amply demonstrated.

Some you guys need to take a basic course in what Neo-Darwinism is.
I provided the textbooks from four college-level courses on evolution and genetics. randman has refused to acknowledge that. I can only call this a lie.

It is apparent that not too many, maybe none, are aware of criticisms of NeoDarwinism, to be hereafter referred to as Darwinism or ND, among front loaders and esteemed scientists like Grasse, etc,..... I use those terms rather than "evolution" because these men all accepted common descent. Behe and some IDers accept common descent as well but are not generally considered "evolutionists." I hope the terminology brings some clarity.
No, it doesn't. Behe is a died-in-the-wool Creationist who only nominally accepts common decent when he's been shown to have no other options. As for esteemed scientists, I can throw all kinds of names at you in favor of evolution: Gould. Eldritch. Sepkoiski. Feldmann. Ward. Quade. Dibblee. Yaccabucci. Freeman. Herron. Klug. Cummings. Campbell. Reece. Zimmer. Dawkins. Meyers. If you want to talk about evolution, THOSE are the guys and galls you need to discuss, ranging from world-renowned speakers to the people who do the day to day data analysis and accumulation. YOU DO NOT GET TO REDEFINE TERMS TO SUIT YOUR ARGUMENTS WHEN THOSE TERMS HAVE AGREED-UPON DEFINITIONS.

randman said:
He calls "evolution" a "myth", a lie perpetuated in part by fraud.
For the peanut gallery, this is slander. And not just a vague "Those people are frauds", but slander against members of this forum engaged in research into evolution. If there are SPECIFIC accusations that can be backed up, let's hear them; otherwise, this is pretty much the height of incivility in scientific debate. And as it's a flat-out lie that the guy randman is "quoting" said it, the slanderer is randman.

It's sad really, but that's typical with so many evos. They've never even understood what their critics are saying because they are convinced they know what they think and are going to say.
This is called projection. As far as I can tell no one here has put randman on ignore because of his antics. However, I was specifically put on ignore because he refused to actually read what I wrote concerning coral neural net complexity.
 

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