General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[ThunderChunky]

This is in essence Bikerdruid's and Thunder's view. Especially the one-month old -- what was he thinking, being Jewish like that in a place where Jews are killed? Naturally there isn't the slightest condemnation of the murderer, but hey, he was just "resisting the occupation" or something.

Reminds me of some of the responses to the slaughter of the activists on the flotilla.

 

[bigjelmapro]

Interesting response by Mycroft here. Firegarden is still beating his head trying to circumvent the legal arguments and failing miserably. Parky and TF, still the shortbus cheerleaders trying to seem pertinent.

Thread has bits and pieces of everything. Quite entertaining.

 

[bigjelmapro]

It is terrible. But when I see reports of Palestinians or others in the occupied territories being murdered, it seems to be justified, or a conspiracy to make Israel look bad, etc.

BTW, expect a PM from the mods when this thread is merged.

Again, another claim to add to the pile that nobody is making.

Any more fabrications you would like to add AUP?

 

[bigjelmapro]

Reminds me of some of the responses to the slaughter of the activists on the flotilla.

And yeah, IDF soldiers meeting a lynch mob on the deck of a ship is completely related to children and babies getting stabbed in their sleep.

Failed troll attempt?

 

[a_unique_person]

Since it is still difficult to blame the PA for not doing enough to thwart terrorism (its campaign against Hamas continues unabated ), Netanyahu emphasized the anti-settler incitement in the Palestinian media and educational system in his remarks. The PA security apparatus has recently undertaken many successful operations that have saved Israeli lives, including extricating Israelis who mistakenly ended up in the heart of Palestinian towns and the arrest of would-be terrorists seeking to kidnap and murder settlers.

http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/mess-r...igger-terrorism-by-jewish-extremists-1.348815

So, Palestinians save lives never makes a headline.

 

[bigjelmapro]

Ah, the ol' liberal media conspiracy rears its ugly head again! Reality really does have a liberal bias

How is that excerpt (not linked, but here it is) a 'liberal media'? I wouldn't hide behind the term liberal here. Especially when using terms like 'colony' and 'indigenous'.

But I guess the scuffles, destruction of property, etc. has the 'accepted' reaction of stabbing an entire family including children and a baby in its sleep.

 

[bigjelmapro]

http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/mess-r...igger-terrorism-by-jewish-extremists-1.348815

So, Palestinians save lives never makes a headline.

PA police saving Israelis from Palestinians (potentially) who make a wrong turn. Let that sink in a bit. Now look at the op.

 

[WildCat]

Why isn't this in the Israel/Paelstine thread?

Shhhhhh....

 

[FireGarden]

And if Michael Behe tells me that Darwin was why the Nazis did the things they did I have no reason to doubt it, because I consider him extremely qualified to speak of such things.

Clearly I have underestimated your sense of humour. You are comparing Michael Behe's expertise on evolution and the Nazis to the CIA's expertise on international affairs. (Not to mention the UK and EU and the US government, according to the wiki page Thunder linked).

Really, who do you think you're fooling? You know damn well that the reason you won't post a definition of "ocupation" that fits the Gaza situation is because you can't find one, and you can't find one because it doesn't exist. What actually exists is this:

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hague04.asp#art42

Clearly, an occupation requires boots on the ground, and Israel is not doing any of the things in Gaza which occupying powers must do.

Where does it say that an occupation requires boots on the ground?

I read:

Territory is considered occupied when it is actually placed under the authority of the hostile army.
The occupation extends only to the territory where such authority has been established and can be exercised.

This is yet another example of the double standard imposed on Israel, and even words well understood get new meanings solely to include Israel. Especially if they have negative connotations.

So you can meet the challenge I set Mycroft?
Show me some other occupation which 'ended' with the occupied territory still under the restrictions which Gaza is under. You've claimed there is a double standard -- that Israel is being treated differently. Back that up with an example.

Tell us again how you hate revisionism, it will ring just as hollow the next time around.

Tell us again how the definition you quoted agrees with your description of 'occupation'. I think it agrees with this:

Sorry dude but try as you may you can't handwave the occupation of Gaza away by pulling back to the borders. Occupation has to do with effective control. Israel has effective control, they do what they want when they want to....fly over wander in wander out....you said yourself that if the Gaza/Egypt border was to become open without any controls then you think Israel should move in to make a buffer zone. You said even this would not be occupation because they would only have boots on the ground of a little bit of gaza.

so who's permission would Israel need to do this? answer is ....nobodies. why? Because Israel has effective control. They do what they want when they want...inside above and around Gaza....sorry son, can't handwave away the responsibility that comes with control.

I tried to say this, but didn't do as well.

 

[FireGarden]

No.

You didn't read the post I quoted, did you? The Fool's definition of "occupation" is based on the ability of a country to enter another country with troops for a few hours, and it's ability to fly over that country. By that definition, the U.S. pretty much occupies every other country on Earth. As does China, Russia, Israel, UK, France, Germany, and probably several other countries. It's a useless definition.

Feel free to cry, if it makes you feel better for your lack of reading skills.

I don't read TF's definition the same way as you.
He used the term 'effective control' and that is what Israel has over Gaza which the USA doesn't have over Canada.

ETA: Please comment on why the CIA says
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/gz.html

West Bank and Gaza Strip are Israeli-occupied with current status subject to the Israeli-Palestinian Interim Agreement - permanent status to be determined through further negotiation; Israel removed settlers and military personnel from the Gaza Strip in August 2005.

 

[ThunderChunky]

And yeah, IDF soldiers meeting a lynch mob on the deck of a ship is completely related to children and babies getting stabbed in their sleep.

Failed troll attempt?

IDF forces raiding a flotilla in international waters and executing people..yes it is similar to executing people in there homes? If the IDF only shot people in self defense you might have a point, but shooting a man once in the chest and 4 more times in the head at close range is nothing but an execution. Get your facts straight before calling people out as trolls.

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/Media/american-killed-gaza-aid-flotilla/story?id=10814848

The point was that Skeptic, among others, did not condemn the execution of this man on the flotilla, but in fact called him a terrorist just for being there. Others in the flotilla thread made the same "they brought it upon themselves" type of arguments. I am just illustrating the hypocrisy.

 

[yairhol]

I find it fascinating how some Americans stand up for the terrorist groups who cheered at the 9/11 tragedy and who perform celebrations at every occasion in which the U.S. has a cause for sadness.

 

[Par]

...israeli settlers getting killed is kinda like when someone chooses to live in a well-known flood-prone area. we all feel bad for them when the flood does happen..every 10 years or so, but we also ask ourselves: "why the hell do they live there knowing the likelyhood of a tragedy?????" i of course feel horrible for the settler kids, who were put in such a dangerous situation by their stupid and probably hateful parents.

Should those who live in flood prone areas put up sea walls and defences to protect themselves? Your argument doesn't hold water.

I’ve some sympathy for what you say, Thunder, but one significant difference is that floods are not moral agents, whereas people are. Someone who lives on a floodplain only has themselves to blame. Someone who lives in an area where they’re likely to get themselves and their children killed is irresponsible, but, when it comes to the killing itself, blameless.

 

[Par]

IDF forces raiding a flotilla in international waters and executing people..yes it is similar to executing people in there homes? If the IDF only shot people in self defense you might have a point, but shooting a man once in the chest and 4 more times in the head at close range is nothing but an execution. Get your facts straight before calling people out as trolls.

This is peripheral, I suppose, but I’ve no idea how you’ve arrived at the conclusion that five head/chest shots at close range must mean an execution.

 

[Par]

The point was that Skeptic, among others, did not condemn the execution of this man on the flotilla, but in fact called him a terrorist just for being there. Others in the flotilla thread made the same "they brought it upon themselves" type of arguments. I am just illustrating the hypocrisy.

The flotilla gang – or at least the insane jihadi element thereof – knowingly sailed into restricted waters and then tried to murder the soldiers who attempted to apprehend them. Therefore they indeed brought themselves.

 

[pipelineaudio]

ah...they stole the land they were on....that explains it.
israeli settlers have no business in the west bank.

Does that mean I can kill all you

Edited by LashL: 

Edited for civility.

over here in the islands?

 

[pipelineaudio]

violence, while not condoned, is clearly a constant threat in a land that is occupied and has hundreds of thousands of illegally settled persons.

so yes, while not wished for, floods and violence against illegal settlers do happen.

one can mitigate this threat by moving away from low-lying areas, and moving away from illegal settlements.

And I bet you don't say the same for the Hawaiians who, though theyve been given no land, and are reduced to a tiny percentage of the population of palestinians, haven't gone and killed significant numbers of illegal settlers yet

 

[angrysoba]

I’ve some sympathy for what you say, Thunder, but one significant difference is that floods are not moral agents, whereas people are. Someone who lives on a floodplain only has themselves to blame. Someone who lives in an area where they’re likely to get themselves and their children killed is irresponsible, but, when it comes to the killing itself, blameless.

Thank you. This is what I was trying to say to Thunder who seems to believe that the settlers are comparable to people deliberately provoking indifferent forces of nature.

And even if anyone is persuaded by Thunder's arguments that at the very least the parents are somehow orchestrators of their fate (not me) then it doesn't follow that their children should be killed. They were killed because they were ethnic Jews. In other words this is racially motivated murder.

Cue "But whatabout..."

 

[Arcade22]

I just saw some photos of the incident. Brutal.

I'm not a fan of the settlers but let's hope they catch these sick ****s.

 

[Thunder]

They were killed because they were ethnic Jews. In other words this is racially motivated murder.

no, they were killed because they were illegal settlers living in illegal settlements.

I do not condone their murders any more than I condone the settlements.