Protests in Wisconsin - Scott Walker

BeAChooser said:
Now isn't that a sweet deal. But who was representing *us* in that so-called *bargaining*? :rolleyes:
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Yeah, well, would you happen to know what they do when they do show up? Your source is not exactly unbiased. It may be something worthwhile.

Now my wife is on call 24/7. She carries her phone with her everywhere she goes. Now why can she get such a sweeeeet deal? Oh that's right … she doesn't have a democrat politician doing the bargaining against her in *negotiations*.
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Stop whining about what somebody else gets. Just because your wife is underpaid does not mean that people who have unions watching out for their rights is over-paid. She should be getting paid more for not being able to use her time off as she sees fit.

The idea is that when a pager goes off, you are obligated to respond. That is an imposition on your time and should be compensated.

Seems to me, most businesses could have hired 3 drivers for that much money. But then most businesses don't have the boss of the company *negotiating* FOR the union members. It's a bit more adversarial. As it should be.
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Then whine about the HR people not being up to speed, not that a worker gets time and a half for the error. At that rate, he is obviously working more hours than are conducive to public safety, any way.[/QUOTE]
 
Reginald Hobbes said:
Green Bay teacher emeritus program

Madison teacher emeritus program (page 3 of pdf)

Wausau crossing guard

Outstanding first-year teacher laid off
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And the point of these out of context anecdotes is?

Green Bay and Madison teachers' retirement programs? What is your point? You're jealous? You don't think any government workers deserve a decent retirement package? This is the cause of the recession?

You got nothing.

Unions fighting to keep 'crossing guard' as a paid position. Wow, that's some injustice. :rolleyes:

And an anecdote of one drawback of seniority without any discussion of the benefits of a seniority system, the benefit of loyalty to long term employees, and the benefit of experience regardless of the skill of a new teacher.


You got nothing.
 
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Skeptic Ginger said:
And the point of these out of context anecdotes is?
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Well, SG, I think it would be obvious. You claimed that the link I supplied and the quotes I cited from that link were full of lies. Yet if you check each of the links Reginald Hobbes supplied, you can verify the accuracy of what my link claimed. For example, he has a link for the Madison teachers' retirement program published by the schools. And that link contains the following statements:

The Teacher Emeritus Retirement Program (TERP) is a negotiated agreement between MTI and the District. It is agreed upon as a Memorandum of Understanding of “Side Bar Agreement”. As such, it must be recognized every two years. The first TERP Agreement was agreed to in 1977, in part as a means to assist in reducing staff through attrition in response to a high number of layoffs. Initially, participants in TERP were required to perform 20 days of service to the District in each of the three years they received a TERP benefit. This service requirement was eventually deleted

... snip ...

The District shall pay all eligible retirees 19% of the eligible retiree’s highest annual salary each year for three years, in thirty-six (36) monthly installments.
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And since Madison school teachers make about the same as Green Bay retirees ... actually a little more ... 19% of their salary (over $52,000 a year) is indeed at least $9,884.18, just as claimed by the source (mine) that you said was full of lies. By all means, SG, continue making a fool of yourself in your efforts to defend the indefensible. :D
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
And the point of these out of context anecdotes is?
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That link is full of one lie after another. It's not credible.
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It is not one lie after another. Which calls your credibility into question.

Green Bay and Madison teachers' retirement programs? What is your point? You're jealous? You don't think any government workers deserve a decent retirement package? This is the cause of the recession?
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I'd ask you for proof that I hold those three beliefs, but as the saying goes, you got nothing.
 
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http://www.unionleader.com/article....rticleId=442ab0c0-d406-40d0-9620-0c6d6617188d

The executive board of the state's largest teachers union has called for a boycott of the businesses owned by state Republican National Committeeman and Concord developer Steve Duprey because he has called for an end to collective bargaining for public employees and to teacher tenure.
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Ok. I can respect the union members' right to boycott non-union businesses. But will teacher union members respect the right of non-union people who now decide to ask businesses if they employ union workers, and then go elsewhere to spend their money if they do? :p
 
Reginald Hobbes said:
It is not one lie after another. Which calls your credibility into question.


I'd ask you for proof that I hold those three beliefs, but as the saying goes, you got nothing.
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I am convinced that she is just trolling liberals for a reason. Get used to this if you want to "debate" her nonsense.
 
respect said:
I am convinced that she is just trolling liberals for a reason. Get used to this if you want to "debate" her nonsense.
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Uncalled for. You right wingers have been shrieking about the emeritus program for over a day now and have not offered any evidence that it is a bad thing to pay for, and none of us have the slightest clue what it is.

Explain yourself or accept that we on the left think you are either tilting at windmills (the best-case scenario) or trying to blow smoke up our backside. I have yet to see that the right wing has any interest in making public education work in this country, so the emeritus program is probably a good thing, since it has the right wing's panties in a knot.
 
leftysergeant said:
Uncalled for. You right wingers have been shrieking about the emeritus program for over a day now and have not offered any evidence that it is a bad thing to pay for, and none of us have the slightest clue what it is.

Explain yourself or accept that we on the left think you are either tilting at windmills (the best-case scenario) or trying to blow smoke up our backside. I have yet to see that the right wing has any interest in making public education work in this country, so the emeritus program is probably a good thing, since it has the right wing's panties in a knot.
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Do you think that all of the people you dub "right wingers" attend daily meetings together and engage in groupthink?

What the hell are you talking about? I missed yesterday's meeting.
 
respect said:
Do you think that all of the people you dub "right wingers" attend daily meetings together and engage in groupthink?

What the hell are you talking about? I missed yesterday's meeting.
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yes, we noticed you were out...Sarah Palin was NOT happy about it.

not to worry, I took notes and will pass them along to. Or you can just get them from one of the many FOX News people who were there also.

btw, next Tuesday, we're throwing a suprise party for Rush Limbaugh...bring a gift.
 
Reginald Hobbes said:
It is not one lie after another. Which calls your credibility into question.
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Claiming a true fact falsely supports a conclusion is still a falsehood.

'Ripe bananas are yellow therefore bananas are citrus fruit', is an example of a true fact within a falsehood.

Reginald Hobbes said:
I'd ask you for proof that I hold those three beliefs, but as the saying goes, you got nothing.
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I asked you IF those were your beliefs. I didn't say they WERE your beliefs.


You guys are trying to support a false claim using evidence that doesn't lead to the conclusion you are trying to support. Using evidence in this way is how people are able to create propaganda that persuades people to believe false things.


1) Spell out what you are trying to prove.
2) Cite what you think supports it.
3) Ask people to tell you what is wrong with your thinking.

1) Union seniority layoff rule results in good teachers being let go and bad teachers retained.
2) Award winning teacher let go due to seniority rule.
3) A single anecdote does not reflect the entire picture. It doesn't reflect all the advantages and disadvantages in a union contract that requires seniority layoff rules.

1) Unions have excessive retirement benefits.
2) 2 retirement contracts that sound excessive to you are cited.
3) This says nothing about standard retirement contracts, about the economic conditions when the contract was negotiated, nothing about how flexible the union negotiators are considering the NEW economic conditions, and so on.


When you look at the world in these oversimplified bits of information, you are so easily manipulated by those who are benefitting here, and that is in this case, the rich and the powerful.
 
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85,000 plus on the Square today... sorry I missed it. Was anybody from JREF there?

I'll be up in Madison for a couple days week after next. And looking forward to it :D
 
Frank Newgent said:
85,000 plus on the Square today... sorry I missed it. Was anybody from JREF there?

I'll be up in Madison for a couple days week after next. And looking forward to it :D
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only 85k?

wow...they're gonna need more numbers than that.

Scott Walker got 1.1 million votes in the last election.
 
Frank Newgent said:
85,000 plus on the Square today... sorry I missed it. Was anybody from JREF there?

I'll be up in Madison for a couple days week after next. And looking forward to it :D
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Are you going to pretend you are sick on the taxpayer's dime when you are there?
 
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