Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Justinian2]

I’m sorry but much of what you say is hyperbole. Yes there are people like ourselves who for varying reasons have an interests in this case, but the world certainly is not looking at Italy any differently because of this case, I would say there is more interest in the Italian Prime Minister. Meredith was a British citizen the case is not front page in newspapers nor lead items on the TV news in the UK.
Can you point me in the direction of the translated court documents you refer to?

What do you think is the lead item on global news today, the earthquake off the coast of Japan or the ongoing appeal in Perugia, please look at you TV news what is the lead item?

The Massei document was translated. Any article published in Italian can be somewhat translated automatically by Google and other resources.

Hyperbole means extravagant exaggeration. What I said was the truth without exaggeration, let alone without extravagant exaggeration.

I don't know of any that think MORE highly of Italy because of this case, do you? I do know some that think less of Italy because of this case. I didn't use adjectives to say that the loss of respect of Italy in this case was catastrophic, did I? Bush probably did more damage to the respect of the USA with the Guantanamo Bay fiasco than the Meredith trial has damaged the image of Italy. But there is no way for a truly precise measurement. I would venture a confident guess that the supporters of the Knox family think less of the Italian justice system than before.

Perhaps this is hyperbole: I put the prosecution of the people that Mignini didn't like (for slander) on a par with the lowest of the low.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

A snap shot of lead items on various US and UK TV news stations:

CBS
http://www.cbsnews.com/

ABC
http://abcnews.go.com/

CNN
http://edition.cnn.com/

Sky News (UK)
http://news.sky.com/skynews/

BBC
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/

 

[CoulsdonUK]

The Massei document was translated. Any article published in Italian can be somewhat translated automatically by Google and other resources.

Hyperbole means extravagant exaggeration. What I said was the truth without exaggeration, let alone without extravagant exaggeration.

I don't know of any that think MORE highly of Italy because of this case, do you? I do know some that think less of Italy because of this case. I didn't use adjectives to say that the loss of respect of Italy in this case was catastrophic, did I? Bush probably did more damage to the respect of the USA with the Guantanamo Bay fiasco than the Meredith trial has damaged the image of Italy. But there is no way for a truly precise measurement. I would venture a confident guess that the supporters of the Knox family think less of the Italian justice system than before.

Perhaps this is hyperbole: I put the prosecution of the people that Mignini didn't like (for slander) on a par with the lowest of the low.

Okay in a roundabout way you are agreeing that the world has other things on it's mind other than what is happening in Perugia.

What is the lead item on your TV news? Has that news station reported on events in Perugia today?

Can you provide the link the court documents you referred to, I would like to have a look, thanks in advance.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Maresca and magical thinking

"A lawyer for the Kercher family, Francesco Maresca, noted the testimony said nothing of public buses, that pass near the piazza. 'I remain convinced of the reliability of this witness,' he told reporters during a break in the session."

Unbelievable.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

police misconduct

Can you provide the link the court documents you referred to, I would like to have a look, thanks in advance.

CoulsdonUK,

I would not google the name Federico Aldrovandi, the young man who was beaten to death after being handcuffed, unless I had the stomach for some disturbing images. However I was hoping to hear your view of the Bologna case which I cited, especially the fact that his mother was sued for calling the police officers who were responsible "felons." No wonder Amnesty International indicated that Italy does not have an effective means of dealing with such situations.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

"A lawyer for the Kercher family, Francesco Maresca, noted the testimony said nothing of public buses, that pass near the piazza. 'I remain convinced of the reliability of this witness,' he told reporters during a break in the session."

Unbelievable.

What do you find unbelievable and why?

 

[CoulsdonUK]

CoulsdonUK,

I would not google the name Federico Aldrovandi, the young man who was beaten to death after being handcuffed, unless I had the stomach for some disturbing images. However I was hoping to hear your view of the Bologna case which I cited, especially the fact that his mother was sued for calling the police officers who were responsible "felons." No wonder Amnesty International indicated that Italy does not have an effective means of dealing with such situations.

Thank you, I do not have what I regard as morbid fascination that others seem to have the link you provided the other day was more than sufficient, what times we live in when the tragedy of that young man’s family is splashed across the internet for people to pour over. However, I do hope those responsible are prosecuted.

I wonder what Amensty International make of Guantanamo Bay?

 

[Justinian2]

"A lawyer for the Kercher family, Francesco Maresca, noted the testimony said nothing of public buses, that pass near the piazza. 'I remain convinced of the reliability of this witness,' he told reporters during a break in the session."

Unbelievable.

It's like he was admiting that he doesn't believe it himself and is in denial. "I remain convinced" is not the strongest argument in the world.

Luciano Ghirga, a lawyer for Knox, said the testimony "removes the two from the scene of the crime." But the prosecution maintained the witness testimonies were inconclusive.

Prosecutor Manuela Comodi called the testimony "useless," saying there are other discos in Perugia and other bus shuttle services whose operators had not been heard.

A lawyer for the Kercher family, Francesco Maresca, noted the testimony said nothing of the public buses that pass through the piazza. "I remain convinced of the reliability of this witness," he told reporters during a break in the session.

Curatolo is expected to take the witness stand again in the next hearing, on March 26. In a blow to the prosecution, Curatolo was recently convicted and arrested on an unrelated drug charge, news reports and officials said.

Knox said she spent the night at Sollecito's house, watching a movie, smoking pot and having sex.

Read more at the Washington Examiner: http://washingtonexaminer.com/enter...nox-appeals-trial-resumes-italy#ixzz1GOl2Hjpk

But the prosecution maintained the witness testimonies were inconclusive...

The prosecution has to prove guilt. The defense's job is to merely to prove that the defendant is NOT guilty not that the defendant is innocent.

As I have argued earlier, it is NOT the prosecution's job to argue that someone is NOT NOT guilty; they have to prove guilt. The prosecution has to prove that Curatolo's testimony is conclusive.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

good on Amnesty International

Thank you, I do not have what I regard as morbid fascination that others seem to have the link you provided the other day was more than sufficient, what times we live in when the tragedy of that young man’s family is splashed across the internet for people to pour over. However, I do hope those responsible are prosecuted.

I wonder what Amensty International make of Guantanamo Bay?

CoulsdonUK,

I wrote to my local paper and my U.S. senator about our detention policies, and anyone who wants to know just how I feel about them can read my blog. I have contributed money to one international human rights organization. I know that Amnesty International has criticized the U.S. I don't know the specifics of the criticisms, but I will take as a given that those criticisms are just. Therefore, I hope that people in power in Italy and the U.S. listen to what Amnesty International has to say, and good on them for saying it. But Gunatanamo is not germane to what we are discussing here, whereas the Aldrovandi case is.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Curalto curries favor

What do you find unbelievable and why?

Curatolo's testimony is not credible in several ways, the lack of buses is just one of them. For example, the heroin charge would give him a reason to curry favor with the authorities. The fact that he has been a witness twice previously is enough to raise suspicions.

Unbelievable? Well, maybe I was wrong. As Kaosium noted elsewhere, he and Ms. Comodi jumped out of their seats as if they had both just sat on a cactus when the Rome forensics experts wanted to open up the kitchen knife. Maresca was also the one who said words to the effect that Italy was teaching the world and the U.S. how to do forensics. Nothing that comes out of his mouth would surprise me, except if it were true.

 

[Justinian2]

It's like he was admiting that he doesn't believe it himself and is in denial. "I remain convinced" is not the strongest argument in the world.

The prosecution has to prove guilt. The defense's job is to merely to prove that the defendant is NOT guilty not that the defendant is innocent.

As I have argued earlier, it is NOT the prosecution's job to argue that someone is NOT NOT guilty; they have to prove guilt. The prosecution has to prove that Curatolo's testimony is conclusive.

In logic not not A is equal to A. So let me clarify.

It's not the prosecutions job to prove that the evidence proving innocence is false because none may exist. Ok, the alibi is the only evidence for innocence that the defense has. That can be attacked.

Most of the evidence, even the alibi, is evidence of absence. It is very tough to prove that the defendant is innocent without proving that all of the prosecution's evidence is invalid. This is reason that that modern courts don't require the defense to prove innocence. The defense is normally required only to prove the defendants are NOT guilty. The preponderance of evidence must prove guilt. In fact, the preponderance of evidence must prove guilt to beyond a reasonable doubt in criminal trials.

But the prosecution maintained the witness testimonies were inconclusive...

That statement actually finds for the defense for the reasons I just argued.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

CoulsdonUK,

I wrote to my local paper and my U.S. senator about our detention policies, and anyone who wants to know just how I feel about them can read my blog. I have contributed money to one international human rights organization. I know that Amnesty International has criticized the U.S. I don't know the specifics of the criticisms, but I will take as a given that those criticisms are just. Therefore, I hope that people in power in Italy and the U.S. listen to what Amnesty International has to say, and good on them for saying it. But Gunatanamo is not germane to what we are discussing here, whereas the Aldrovandi case is.

I can only make a general observation regarding the actions of police officers in many countries, innocent people are shot and killed by police when this happens there should be a full investigation and where appropriate a full trial. Two fairly recent cases in the UK where a Barrister was shot and killed by armed police in Chelsea, London. Another case back in 2007 involved a Brazilian being shot and killed at point blank range on an underground train, in both cases the police officers stated that they felt their lives or the colleague’s lives were in danger.

With regards to Mother being sued, I assume this was possible because officers in question had not been sent to trial\appeal process which as we know in Italy one’s conviction and sentence must be confirmed by the Supreme Court.

I do not necessarily agreed with verdicts I mentioned above but as I have said before, there is no better alternative to western justice systems, until there is each sovereign country should be allowed to prosecute according to their laws.

Guantanamo Bay is only relevant in the context of the findings of international bodies, I agree it is not directly related, but a number of western countries are in violation with such bodies the UK included.

In what way do you believe the Aldrovandi case is relevant to Meredith’s murder?

 

[Alt+F4]

"A lawyer for the Kercher family, Francesco Maresca, noted the testimony said nothing of public buses, that pass near the piazza. 'I remain convinced of the reliability of this witness,' he told reporters during a break in the session."

Unbelievable.

Yes, I caught that too. I thought it had been settled that it was disco buses in question, not public buses.

Also:

Prosecutor Manuela Comodi said the testimony was "useless" as there are other discos in Perugia and other bus shuttle services whose operators had not been heard.

Does this mean that she might try to offer evidence (at a later date) regarding other shuttle buses?

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Curatolo's testimony is not credible in several ways, the lack of buses is just one of them. For example, the heroin charge would give him a reason to curry favor with the authorities. The fact that he has been a witness twice previously is enough to raise suspicions.

Unbelievable? Well, maybe I was wrong. As Kaosium noted elsewhere, he and Ms. Comodi jumped out of their seats as if they had both just sat on a cactus when the Rome forensics experts wanted to open up the kitchen knife. Maresca was also the one who said words to the effect that Italy was teaching the world and the U.S. how to do forensics. Nothing that comes out of his mouth would surprise me, except if it were true.

Well he is in my opinion no less credible than Alessi or Aviello, having said that they have not been allowed as witnesses yet. He hardly seems to being treated favourably by the authorities unless of course you regard his imprisonment as an improvement over his previous status.

I am more than curious to read the outcome of today’s proceedings. As for the witnesses today, if I owned a club in Perugia or ran a tourist bus service I could only comment about what my club or bus company did on the night Meredith was murdered, I could not state that no clubs were open or that no buses where running.

I wonder what Curatolo will say at the next hearing.

I take it that you are not a fan of Mr Maresca?

 

[Kaosium]

What are the violations referred to in the link?

Which articles were violated?

A recent example ECHR recently ruled that UK prisoners should have the right to vote in general elections, as it stands now the UK government is in violation of an ECHR ruling.

Can you provide any statistical information based on capital crimes such as murder, this I think you would agree would be more germane to Meredith’s murder?

Here's a breakdown of violations from 1999-2006. As you can see, the two most relevant to Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, length of proceedings and right to a fair trial, are dominated by Italy amongst 'western democracies justice systems.'

 

[Alt+F4]

The main puzzle of Amanda and Raffaele's guilt or innocence is solved. Now we are on to the meta-puzzle: What is wrong with the guilters, and how may it be fixed?

Well you obviously are more concerned with the guilters than Amanda and Raffaele, who remain in prison despite your declaration that they are innocent.

I don't think you care the slightest bit about the fate of the lovebirds, what bugs you is that people on the Internet don't acknowledge your delusions of grandure.

"How may it be fixed"?.....sounds like something out of the Khmer Rouge playbook.

Some people think you're wrong, deal with it. If you want to help Amanda and Raffaele then send money to their defense funds. Other than that, nothing you do means anything.

 

[Alt+F4]

The American government, the British government, the European Union and the United Nations stand idly by while this travesty goes on. There is no quality control on justice on earth. Earth governments are out to lunch. All of them. Mignini is a cockroach that should have been stomped on by some governing institution.

They don't do anything because they know justice has been served in this case.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

everyone should have to answer to someone

In what way do you believe the Aldrovandi case is relevant to Meredith’s murder?

"Italy continued to lack an effective police accountability mechanism. There were irregularities in legal processes against law enforcement officials accused of human rights violations."

When a grieving mother calls her son's killers "felons," it is less a statement of fact than it is one of emotional pain. For anyone to sue her for saying what she did in such circumstances is appalling. Along with statements from the Committee to Protect Journalists that I have cited previously, this case bolsters my impression that ILE has too much power and too little oversight. They are very fond of suing people, as noted here many times. MOO.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Here's a breakdown of violations from 1999-2006. As you can see, the two most relevant to Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, length of proceedings and right to a fair trial, are dominated by Italy amongst 'western democracies justice systems.'

Thank you, I kind of knew you would come back with more information.

I agree the Italian judicial system is slow. However, the link points to general findings covering 2000 – 2006 which was before Meredith was murdered. In addition, ECHR has not and cannot make a ruling on a specific case until the judicial process has been fully exhausted in a member state.

As for whether their trial was fair:

Was the collection and processing of evidence different in some way than other murder cases in Italy at the time?

Are you and others stating that this trial in particular is different in its implementation from other murder cases in Italy? For example in the context of a murder case, was a non Italian or non EU citizen allowed house arrest or allowed to leave Italy until their trial?

Difficult questions to answer but this would be the only way of demonstrating that their treatment was in some way different to other comparable murder cases.

 

[JREF2010]

Judge Hellmann agreed to hear the 7 defence witnesses pending receipt of the current DNA review by the 2 independent experts, due on 9 May.
It was of course Curatolo who testified that the disco buses were running, and Mignini described him as an absolutely unimpeachable witness.
On the 26th March hearing Monica Napoleoni, Isabel Lucas and Curatolo are being recalled by the prosecution to rebut those 7 defence witnesses.
Apparently they will argue that some buses were running that night and that some clubs were open.

with such impeccable memory why can't Curatolo tell everyone exactly which bus he saw?

or has he had plenty of training on what to say while in jail, spoon fed the plan?

and if what you say is correct, what would the defense's obvious response be to this?