Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Alt+F4]

Curatolo has been sunk, Quintavalle has been sunk, Nara has been sunk, the footprint evidence has been sunk,...

In your opinion. The court has not "sunk" any of this.

...the DNA evidence has been subjected to a battery of objections from relevant experts with international reputations,...

Are these experts going to testify for the defense in the appeal? If not, their opinions are irrelevant.

...the DNA lab's procedures have been shown to be culpably substandard if not outright suspicious,...

By whom? Internet sleuths or those same experts that aren't going to testify?

Amanda and Raffaele's alibi has been backed up with electronic records of their activity

I see you're still spouting this lie. Their alibi has not been backed up by anything. You know very well that these "electronic records" are just an unproven asseration from Raffaele's appeal. The appeal court has not addressed this yet.

and the sainted Massei's reasoning processes have been exposed as biased and absurd.

Who exposed this and what did the appeals court say?

However there's still a panic room to run to! Get inside it and declare that you don't care about all that other stuff, Raffaele was too concerned about what stories Guede might make up to be innocent! You're safe now! With one swift bit of folk-psychological guesswork you've found proof beyond reasonable doubt once and for all, and all of that other pesky evidence can never get you again.

I see the pop psychological analysis of those who disagree with you continues.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

musings

I recall after Ayrton Senna was killed in the San Marino Grand Prix in 94, that the owner (Frank Williams) and Chief designer of team he drove for where initial held responsible for the crash and went through various trials in Italy.

I am surprised that you quoted from the Daily Mail I thought that newspaper was an anathema to Raffaele and Amanda’s supporters.



I am curious, what are your views of what Raffaele may have experienced in Perugia?

CoulsdonUK,

I wish I had a better source of information than the Daily Mail, but I thought it was better than nothing. Perhaps someone with more knowledge of Italian law can fill in whether the six-year (maximum?) penalty applies only to in-court testimony or to interrogations outside of court.

There was a case of an eighteen year old man who was beaten to death by police in Bologna in 2005 that was in the back of my mind when I wrote my previous message. I don't know whether this is an extremely rare occurrence or not, or whether Raffaele and his friends were aware of such things or not. I was just musing.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

CoulsdonUK,

I wish I had a better source of information than the Daily Mail, but I thought it was better than nothing. Perhaps someone with more knowledge of Italian law can fill in whether the six-year (maximum?) penalty applies only to in-court testimony or to interrogations outside of court.

There was a case of an eighteen year old man who was beaten to death by police in Bologna in 2005 that was in the back of my mind when I wrote my previous message. I don't know whether this is an extremely rare occurrence or not, or whether Raffaele and his friends were aware of such things or not. I was just musing.

I don’t read the Mail, I read the Guardian or Independent. Do you know whether any police officers were arrested? I haven’t seen any comments from Raffaele’s friends in the media, have you?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Federico Aldrovandi case

I don’t read the Mail, I read the Guardian or Independent. Do you know whether any police officers were arrested? I haven’t seen any comments from Raffaele’s friends in the media, have you?

CoulsdonUK,

I have seen comments from his friends. They supported his character, but I do not have any citations handy.

As for arresting the police officers, I am assuming that you mean with reference to the Bologna case of Federico Aldrovandi that I brought up just now and also previously. Yes, but it was a protracted struggle to obtain a modicum of justice, and his mother was sued for calling the cops felons. the police may have been charged with covering up, as opposed to (or in addition to) the crime itself. Frank mentioned it in passing, in a post he might have called, "What is wrong with the adults of today?" There are not many English-language posts available on it. Here is one, but I do not know anything about the author.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

experts

I
Are these experts going to testify for the defense in the appeal? If not, their opinions are irrelevant.

Alt+F4,

The court would have to let them testify, and it seems as if the court moved in a different direction, going with two experts from Rome. I wish the court had allowed expert testimony from the defense, beyond one letter (which I am not entirely sure will be taken into consideration). In any case their opinions are not at all irrelevant to factual guilt or innocence.

 

[Alt+F4]

The court would have to let them testify

Did the defense ask the court to allow these, "relevant experts with international reputations" to testify?

I wish the court had allowed expert testimony from the defense, beyond one letter

Apologies if I missed it, but did the appeal court not allow the international experts after the defense had requested their testimony?

In any case their opinions are not at all irrelevant to factual guilt or innocence.

If the court doesn't hear what they have to say, than yes, they are irrelevant. The lovebirds fate isn't going to be determined by what people post on the Internet, even if they are experts in their field.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

spot-on

Did the defense ask the court to allow these, "relevant experts with international reputations" to testify? Apologies if I missed it, but did the appeal court not allow international experts after the defense had requested their testimony? If the court doesn't hear what they have to say, than yes, they are irrelevant.

They are not irrelevant to factual, as opposed to legal, guilt or innocence. The defense offered a letter from a world-respected expert on low template number DNA analysis. Whether the defense asked him to testify or not is not a question that I can answer. In addition, other credentialed experts have offered spot-on critiques of Dr. Stefanoni's blunders, as we have discussed here many times.

 

[Alt+F4]

I have seen comments from his friends. They supported his character, but I do not have any citations handy.

Here:

http://www.raffaelesollecito.org/en/amici.html

 

[Alt+F4]

They are not irrelevant to factual, as opposed to legal, guilt or innocence.

Factual, according to what's been posted on the Internet. I'm not disagreeing that they are experts but their opinions have no relevance if they are not heard by the court.

The defense offered a letter from a world-respected expert on low template number DNA analysis. Whether the defense asked him to testify or not is not a question that I can answer.

It would be a good question to be answered, don't you think? Why did the defense request seven witnesses tomorrow regarding the disco buses when the DNA evidence is so much more important?

In addition, other credentialed experts have offered spot-on critiques of Dr. Stefanoni's blunders, as we have discussed here many times.

These credentialed experts mean nothing unless they testify or submit evidence. Did the defense ask the court to consider any experts on Dr. Stefanoni's "blunders"? If not, why?

 

[Alt+F4]

Where were you November 1st? Can you prove it?

There are about 6.9 billion people on planet Earth. According to you anyone of them could have commited this murder....except for Amanda and Raffaele. That they commited the murder is totally impossible!

 

[Magister]

Why did the defense request seven witnesses tomorrow regarding the disco buses when the DNA evidence is so much more important?

Judge Hellmann agreed to hear the 7 defence witnesses pending receipt of the current DNA review by the 2 independent experts, due on 9 May.
It was of course Curatolo who testified that the disco buses were running, and Mignini described him as an absolutely unimpeachable witness.
On the 26th March hearing Monica Napoleoni, Isabel Lucas and Curatolo are being recalled by the prosecution to rebut those 7 defence witnesses.
Apparently they will argue that some buses were running that night and that some clubs were open.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

In your opinion. The court has not "sunk" any of this.

Are these experts going to testify for the defense in the appeal? If not, their opinions are irrelevant.

By whom? Internet sleuths or those same experts that aren't going to testify?

I see you're still spouting this lie. Their alibi has not been backed up by anything. You know very well that these "electronic records" are just an unproven asseration from Raffaele's appeal. The appeal court has not addressed this yet.

Who exposed this and what did the appeals court say?

It's up to you where you put your personal goalposts, Alt+F4.

If you need to have a court acknowledge a fact before it's a fact in your private mental world, so be it.

On the other hand if you think that the peer-reviewed scientific literature, to pick one example, is a reliable source of information even before some minor Italian court has rubber-stamped it, then you can have a well-informed opinion without needing to wait on the court's permission.

I put it to you, however, that this curious epistemological incapacity to fix a belief without the prior approval of an Italian in a wig never once held you back when it came to fixing pro-guilt beliefs. This seems inconsistent.

I see the pop psychological analysis of those who disagree with you continues.

The main puzzle of Amanda and Raffaele's guilt or innocence is solved. Now we are on to the meta-puzzle: What is wrong with the guilters, and how may it be fixed?

 

[zeb]

The guilters, which I am glad to say are loseing the high ground.
The facts of this case are in, there is no ifs or buts now the facts are in.
we have a man who is guilty of this nasty crime in jail.
We have two people who had nothing to do with the crime in jail thanks to a judge and
Mignini.
What Mignini, did not count on was the parents of these two young people was going to fight him, just like the fight the AK and RS parents has put up.
He had no warning that experts from around the world would look at this case and take it apart bit by bit.
Why you may ask? Its all thanks to the media and the lies, yes lies, the media printed around the world.
Judge Hellmann to me is a top Judge, and he has the hard job at this very moment, his job is to find out the truth and show the world that the Italian justic system works.
Also we have a new prosecutor, which means Mignini is on the side lines, to tale you the truth I feel very sorry for the new prosector, who would like to take this mess of a case on.
Also I think this case will move faster through the court then we would expected.
Just my thinking

 

[CoulsdonUK]

The guilters, which I am glad to say are loseing the high ground. The facts of this case are in, there is no ifs or buts now the facts are in. we have a man who is guilty of this nasty crime in jail.

It is a simple fact of the judicial process that the appeal court and only the appeal court will decide Raffaele and Amanda’s culpability; therefore, the high ground you refer to is irrelevant. Agreed Guede’s sentence and conviction has been confirmed.

He had no warning that experts from around the world would look at this case and take it apart bit by bit. Why you may ask? Its all thanks to the media and the lies, yes lies, the media printed around the world.

As has already been explained, unless the experts you refer to are being called as witnesses their opinions in the context of the legal proceedings are irrelevant.

The appeal isn’t some kind of reality court TV show were those interested in the case get a vote.

The tabloid aspect of the media in its various forms did play apart in sensationalising the brutal murder of Meredith Kercher.

Judge Hellmann to me is a top Judge, and he has the hard job at this very moment, his job is to find out the truth and show the world that the Italian justic system works.

Another view is that Hellmann is presiding over an appeal and will follow the penal codes of the Italian justice system. It is a fact which does not require acceptance of others that Raffaele and Amanda were found unanimously guilty subject to the appeal process now taking place. The Italian justice system is no better certainly no worse than any other western democracies justice systems.

Also I think this case will move faster through the court then we would expected. Just my thinking

You could be right about the speed and duration of the appeal I doubt that it will last as long as the trial.

 

[zeb]

Coulsdon
I read through your comments.
But what got me is you did not comment on Mignini.
so let me get this right
You comment on the Judge.
You comment on the experts.
you comment on the justice system in Italy.
You comment on the fast track about this trail.
But you did not comment about Mignini.
Please comment on Mignini
Just asking

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Coulsdon
I read through your comments.
But what got me is you did not comment on Mignini.
so let me get this right
You comment on the Judge.
You comment on the experts.
you comment on the justice system in Italy.
You comment on the fast track about this trail.
But you did not comment about Mignini.
Please comment on Mignini
Just asking

PM Mignini is not the lead prosecutor in the appeal I believe his role is one of advising the prosecution team during the appeal, he was the lead PM during the investigation and the lead PM during the trial.

 

[Kaosium]

Another view is that Hellmann is presiding of an appeal and will follow the penal codes of the Italian justice system. It is a fact which does not require acceptance of others that Raffaele and Amanda were found unanimously guilty subject to the appeal process now taking place. The Italian justice system is no better certainly no worse than any other western democracies justice systems.

Heh, I could ask you to support that claim, but I am no sadist.

Let's start here instead. The ECHR would tend to disagree, Italy is by far the worst violator amongst it's 'western democracies justice systems,' however it was narrowly beaten out by Turkey amongst that's court's jurisdictions. Italy's percentage of total cases was nearly three times that of the third country, Russia:

In statistical data on violation judgments by country for the period between 1959 and 2009, Turkey topped the chart with 18.81 percent of all violation judgments, followed by Italy with 16.57 percent and Russia 6.34 percent. Within this timeframe, 2,295 judgments were entered for Turkey and only in 46 cases did the court find no violations. The most common human rights violation committed by Turkey was the denial of the right to a fair trial. Italy scored second with 2,021 judgments against it.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Heh, I could ask you to support that claim, but I am no sadist.

Let's start here instead. The ECHR would tend to disagree, Italy is by far the worst violator amongst it's 'western democracies justice systems,' however it was narrowly beaten out by Turkey amongst that's court's jurisdictions. Italy's percentage of total cases was nearly three times that of the third country, Russia:

What are the violations referred to in the link?

Which articles were violated?

A recent example ECHR recently ruled that UK prisoners should have the right to vote in general elections, as it stands now the UK government is in violation of an ECHR ruling.

Can you provide any statistical information based on capital crimes such as murder, this I think you would agree would be more germane to Meredith’s murder?

 

[Justinian2]

The guilters, which I am glad to say are loseing the high ground.

The guilters never had the high ground, they were deluded into thinking they had the high ground. Ha, they probably also think they are also on the path to heaven.

The facts of this case are in, there is no ifs or buts now the facts are in. We have a man who is guilty of this nasty crime in jail. We have two people who had nothing to do with the crime in jail thanks to a judge and Mignini.

The American government, the British government, the European Union and the United Nations stand idly by while this travesty goes on. There is no quality control on justice on earth. Earth governments are out to lunch. All of them. Mignini is a cockroach that should have been stomped on by some governing institution.

What Mignini, did not count on was the parents of these two young people was going to fight him, just like the fight the AK and RS parents has put up. He had no warning that experts from around the world would look at this case and take it apart bit by bit.

True. The court documents were quickly translated and disseminated far and wide due to the internet. The pseudo justice of this case could not be swept under the rug. They are naked and exposed for the world to laugh at. Prosecution of those that try to prove innocence are eventually going to put Mignini and company in their appropriate hell.

Why you may ask? Its all thanks to the media and the lies, yes lies, the media printed around the world.

I Agree.

Judge Hellmann to me is a top Judge, and he has the hard job at this very moment, his job is to find out the truth and show the world that the Italian justic system works.

That is my hope too.

Also we have a new prosecutor, which means Mignini is on the side lines, to tale you the truth I feel very sorry for the new prosector, who would like to take this mess of a case on. Also I think this case will move faster through the court then we would expected.

I hope so. This case is not helping Italy's image.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

The guilters never had the high ground, they were deluded into thinking they had the high ground. Ha, they probably also think they are also on the path to heaven.



The American government, the British government, the European Union and the United Nations stand idly by while this travesty goes on. There is no quality control on justice on earth. Earth governments are out to lunch. All of them. Mignini is a cockroach that should have been stomped on by some governing institution.



True. The court documents were quickly translated and disseminated far and wide due to the internet. The pseudo justice of this case could not be swept under the rug. They are naked and exposed for the world to laugh at. Prosecution of those that try to prove innocence are eventually going to put Mignini and company in their appropriate hell.


I Agree.


That is my hope too.


I hope so. This case is not helping Italy's image.

I’m sorry but much of what you say is hyperbole. Yes there are people like ourselves who for varying reasons have an interests in this case, but the world certainly is not looking at Italy any differently because of this case, I would say there is more interest in the Italian Prime Minister. Meredith was a British citizen the case is not front page in newspapers nor lead items on the TV news in the UK.
Can you point me in the direction of the translated court documents you refer to?

What do you think is the lead item on global news today, the earthquake off the coast of Japan or the ongoing appeal in Perugia, please look at you TV news what is the lead item?