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Stupid Christian Article on Evolution

You still haven't defined complex. But broadly, yes, that would be expected.

By expected, that's what evolution predicts. It's an adaptionist process. This is at the heart of Darwinist theory. It's either this or the theory is wrong, right?

The function is the expression of the genes; the evolution is the same. It doesn't evolve "along with" anything, it's the same thing.

Ok, so you cannot have expressed genes for vertebrate function in a simple, non-vertebrate creature with no central nervous system, etc,....
 
Yes, it did. But the two statements are unconnected. Complex organisms are vastly outnumbered by simple ones.

The most complex organisms today are more complex than the most complex organisms half a billion years ago, and the most complex organisms then were more complex than the most complex organisms a billion years ago.

But simple organisms haven't gone anywhere. You yourself are 90% bacteria by cell count.

Ok, there are still simple organisms around but the complex ones have evolved far more genes and genetic complexity than the organisms a half a billion or more years ago, right?
 
Let's try this so we can move on. "Novel genes develop via mutation, and are established in the gene pool via natural selection."

Finally. So new genes evolve or develop and remain in the gene pool through natural selection. That's what you are saying.

Why? They remain in the gene pool through natural selection because they confer selective advantage, correct?
No. They spread in the gene pool through natural selection because they confer selective advantage.

[qupte]So you have new genes via mutation and as species evolve via natural selection, those genes survive and the process keeps repeating itself and so gradually we see an accumulation of new genes.[/quote]
No.

I'll ask again, where do you think these new genes are accumulating?

A mutation produces a novel gene. It doesn't necessarily increase the number of genes. It can in fact decrease the number of genes.

No.
 
No kidding but new genes are added via mutation which remain through natural selection and over time, this process repeats itself until new genes accumulate along with new traits. That's the general pattern, right?

Can you skip to the point?
This Socractic method BS is pretty insulting. If you legitimately don't know something, ask a question. If you're making an argument, make it.
Let's say I give you the quote you're looking for.

Yes Randman, evolution tends to result in greater genetic complexity over time.*

There's a whole lot of caveats, and a whole lot of room for equivocation there, but I'm giving you the agreement you've asked for, what is your point?

*As a general trend
For the entire pool of life, not any given species
Up to a point
 
Greater complexity of genes can lead to a wider variety of traits, so up to a point, increase in complexity is somewhat likely. This doesn't mean the destruction of simpler life forms. It also doesn't mean a constant and unending increase in complexity.

I got that. Not talking a constant and unending increase in complexity. But in order for new genes to generally develop and remain, there has to be mutation and then natural selection based on some trait so the new genes could develop and new species emerge. Of course, some new species can emerge via loss of genes, etc,....but if those genes originally emerged via natural selection as NeoDarwinism envisions, they'd have to have function and selective advantage.

I am just saying evolution predicts from the time of the last common animal ancestors to today, a lot of new genes had to emerge through mutation and natural selection, right?
 
By expected, that's what evolution predicts.
No, it's just statistics.

It's an adaptionist process. This is at the heart of Darwinist theory.
No, it's not part of Darwin's theory at all.

It's either this or the theory is wrong, right?
Not even remotely.

Ok, so you cannot have expressed genes for vertebrate function in a simple, non-vertebrate creature with no central nervous system, etc,....
Again, you're trying to hinge an absolute statement on a very vague one. Broadly, vaguely, yes, this would be unlikey.
 
Pierre-Paul Grasse, not De Grasse....my mistake though I thought the "de" was before his name.

Pierre-Paul Grassé.

First of all, you do realize that he was not a creationist, right?
He was a neo-Lamarckian.

Basically, his point was that mutations did not equal evolution. That population could remain evolutionary stagnant for a long time despite mutations.

That part is quite correct, that is because a mutation is not always beneficial for the whole population.
Furthermore, the benefits of a mutation is environment, ie selection, dependent. So a beneficial mutations in the lab is not necessarily a beneficial one in the population in the wild.
Mutations are the fuel of evolution, but natural selection is the engine driving it forward.

A big point of Grassé was that of living fossils, organisms that were seemingly untouched by evolution despite living in a different environment.
We now know that he was wrong.
First of all, a relatively stable environment is required for 'living fossils', if the environment change too much, either the species evolve or go extinct.
More importantly, his work was conducted before the achievements of molecular biology. So, if the fossils he looked at remain mostly unchanged, he concluded that they did not evolve. But now we can look in more detail and we can see that populations do evolve all the time. These evolutionary changes might not always leave fossilized traces, but now that we can look more closely at their genome, we can see that evolution do, indeed, occur.
 
I got that. Not talking a constant and unending increase in complexity. But in order for new genes to generally develop and remain, there has to be mutation and then natural selection based on some trait so the new genes could develop and new species emerge.
Yes. But that's just change. There's no requirement for an increase in complexity.

I am just saying evolution predicts from the time of the last common animal ancestors to today, a lot of new genes had to emerge through mutation and natural selection, right?
Oh, certainly.
 
Yes Randman, evolution tends to result in greater genetic complexity over time.*

Thank you. I find the Socratic method boring as well but needed some evolutionist here to acknowledge this which we all know is true. It's a basic prediction of evolution (NeoDarwinism). If it's not true, NeoDarwinism is not true.

Some years back a guy I don't necessarily agree with predicted publicly and insisted molecular studies would show the exact opposite and indicate the earliest organisms, at least those that gave rise to plants and animals, would have the most complex genomes.

Well, he was correct. Darwinism was wrong. Doesn't make strict creationism right, but it does show NeoDarwinism or what many just refer to as "evolution" is wrong.
 
Pierre-Paul Grassé.

First of all, you do realize that he was not a creationist, right?
He was a neo-Lamarckian.

Basically, his point was that mutations did not equal evolution. That population could remain evolutionary stagnant for a long time despite mutations.

That part is quite correct, that is because a mutation is not always beneficial for the whole population.
Furthermore, the benefits of a mutation is environment, ie selection, dependent. So a beneficial mutations in the lab is not necessarily a beneficial one in the population in the wild.
Mutations are the fuel of evolution, but natural selection is the engine driving it forward.

A big point of Grassé was that of living fossils, organisms that were seemingly untouched by evolution despite living in a different environment.
We now know that he was wrong.
First of all, a relatively stable environment is required for 'living fossils', if the environment change too much, either the species evolve or go extinct.
More importantly, his work was conducted before the achievements of molecular biology. So, if the fossils he looked at remain mostly unchanged, he concluded that they did not evolve. But now we can look in more detail and we can see that populations do evolve all the time. These evolutionary changes might not always leave fossilized traces, but now that we can look more closely at their genome, we can see that evolution do, indeed, occur.

It's much more than that. His point is NeoDarwinism is a myth, that small gradual, "microevolutionary" changes do not add up and create macroevolution. The mechanism of mutations adding up via natural selection does not work.
 
I got that. Not talking a constant and unending increase in complexity. But in order for new genes to generally develop and remain, there has to be mutation and then natural selection based on some trait so the new genes could develop and new species emerge. Of course, some new species can emerge via loss of genes, etc,....but if those genes originally emerged via natural selection as NeoDarwinism envisions, they'd have to have function and selective advantage.

I am just saying evolution predicts from the time of the last common animal ancestors to today, a lot of new genes had to emerge through mutation and natural selection, right?

If by "last common animal ancestors" you mean the most recent species that all animals share as a common ancestor, then yes, new genetic material has emerged since then. Can you make your point now?
 
Yes. But that's just change. There's no requirement for an increase in complexity.


Oh, certainly.

But what if molecular studies indicate all the genes and even more were already present and did not emerge via natural selection?
 
If by "last common animal ancestors" you mean the most recent species that all animals share as a common ancestor, then yes, new genetic material has emerged since then. Can you make your point now?

How about from before that? The creatures that gave rise to plants and animals.....will answer soon. Please bear with me.
 
Ok, there are still simple organisms around but the complex ones have evolved far more genes and genetic complexity than the organisms a half a billion or more years ago, right?


Nope.
You are still stuck on the whole gene = morphology thing. I explained to you that it was wrong in my first post.

For example, by your reasoning, you would not expect a gene for hemoglobin in an animal without a vascular system.
In fact, the gene at the basis of the hemoglobin molecule traces its origin back to the pyrole ring of the , porphyrin molecule, back during the dawn of life, before the evolution of the animal cell, let alone metazoan, and has been passed down since then in one form or the other, with its sequence and function evolving slowly...
 
Thank you. I find the Socratic method boring as well but needed some evolutionist here to acknowledge this which we all know is true. It's a basic prediction of evolution (NeoDarwinism). If it's not true, NeoDarwinism is not true.

Some years back a guy I don't necessarily agree with predicted publicly and insisted molecular studies would show the exact opposite and indicate the earliest organisms, at least those that gave rise to plants and animals, would have the most complex genomes.

Well, he was correct. Darwinism was wrong. Doesn't make strict creationism right, but it does show NeoDarwinism or what many just refer to as "evolution" is wrong.

Ah good, you've finally gotten to your point.
Who is this "guy" and where is his evidence?
 
btw, do you know what neo-Lamarckian means in respect to what Grasse taught? There have been a lot of smears by Darwinists that don't want to deal with the facts he raised.
 
"Wild guesswork?" all the work done by doctors and medical scientists is "guesswork?" Go back to your dictionary, friend.
Irony. You missed the point - read the rest of his post:
...Oh no wait, they're based on predictions made by the theory of evolution and work carried out in yeast and mice, the results of which ONLY make sense if you assume these organisms evolved from a shared ancestor so we can correlate the function of a genetic pathway in one to deal with a problem found in the other organism.
...
 
But what if molecular studies indicate all the genes and even more were already present and did not emerge via natural selection?

Depends, has I explained, some genes have a very ancient history and have been coopted to different functions.

Still, if you could demonstrate such a thing, that would most certainly rise tremendous questions.

No, you just have to do it. :rolleyes:
 

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