General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[bikerdruid]

Israel has ultimate soverignity and control over the Gaza Strip, its waters, and its airspace.

Guess who's responsibility it is to come save the day if there is a major natural or man-made disaster in Gaza. Yep, its Israel.

that would be because gaza is 'occupied' territory.

 

[Thunder]

that would be because gaza is 'occupied' territory.

from the legal standpoint and from the view of ultimate soveriegnity, yes..they are still Occupied territory.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

8600 rockets launched and 28 deaths? obviously, they are not much of a threat.

First, that's 8,599 more rockets than what is needed to justify a military response on the scale of Operation Cast Lead.

Second, consider the case of the Aum Shinrikyo terrorist cult in Japan:

Over the next week, the full scale of Aum's activities was revealed for the first time. At the cult's headquarters in Kamikuishiki on the foot of Mount Fuji, police found explosives, chemical weapons and biological warfare agents, such as anthrax and Ebola cultures, and a Russian Mil Mi-17 military helicopter. The Ebola virus was delivered from Zaire in 1994.[14] There were stockpiles of chemicals that could be used for producing enough sarin to kill four million people.​

The general membership of Aum Shinrikyo is roughly 1600 members. The ones believed by Japanese law enforcement to have had direct involvement in the groups terrorist activities and WMD programs are about 150, and operated with virtually no support outside their organization. Hamas has a captive population of more than 1.6 million people, and the financial support of a major oil producing nation with its own WMD program.

The Qassam III rocket used by Hamas is 6 feet long, weighs 200 pounds, carries a twenty pound warhead and has a range of more than ten miles.

What do you get when you add Hamas's capability to that of a small band of Japanese hillbillies?

And before you say it, yes, I am aware that the 28 dead in Israel were "just jews".

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

in the 'gaza war of 2008, there were 13 israeli deaths, 10 soldiers (4 by friendly fire) and 3 civilians, while 1407 palestinians were killed, including several hundred children.

Kids at home, never launch 8,000 rockets at people who are better at war than you are.

Hamas is genocidal and stupid, this is not Israels fault.

i don't profess to know the answers, but these figures show that the israeli response is indeed not proportional.

If you load a rifle, aim it and fire a single bullet at me, I have the right to take you out.

Israel killed one palestinian for every 6 rockets launched.

 

[Skeptic]

There are many people on the Israeli and Palestinian side that just want some *********** peace. They just want to live their lives. Unfortunately when you have the equivalent of the West Boro Baptist church operating on both sides, it is not going to happen.

There are four wars going on now. Two are Israel's war for defensible borders and security and the Palestinians' war against occupation. If these were the only two wars a solution would be found long ago.

The problem is the other two, the "Allah / Jehovah mit uns" wars, which see the situation as a zero-sum game their god had (a) decreed they must fight without any compromise, and (b) promised they will win.

You'd think the fact that both side's god promised final victory would give some of these folks pause and make them think perhaps this "god promised we will win" thingy is less to be relied upon than they believe, but do they listen? Nooooooooooo.

 

[Thunder]

The problem is the other two, the "Allah / Jehovah mit uns" wars,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law

 

[IDB87]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law

It is precisely because such a comparison or reference may sometimes be appropriate, Godwin has argued[4] that overuse of Nazi and Hitler comparisons should be avoided, because it robs the valid comparisons of their impact.

I think it should be a fallacy to use 'Godwin' whenever anyone says anything about Nazis or Hitler.

 

[Thunder]

I think it should be a fallacy to use 'Godwin' whenever anyone says anything about Nazis or Hitler.

it should be a fallacy when the only regime you EVER compare folks to, is the Nazis.

what, the Soviets, Chi-Coms, and East Germans weren't evil enough?

 

[FireGarden]

Who? The BBC doesn’t name anyone or any law. If your claim is that the internationals who set international law have made this determination, then please name these people and the laws they cite.

By 'has not been accepted internationally' I take the BBC to mean that no international body has accepted it. ie: Israel's claim does not stand and the status of Gaza is unchanged.

I predict you will no more do that than you named the Hague Conventions and Geneva Conventions that define occupation.

I don't need to define occupation. If you think I'm going to have a legal debate with you, then you are mistaken. I will rely upon the authorities I have quoted. If you disagree, then poke holes in the authorities I have quoted and their ability to report on the matter.

They don’t list anything at all, remember?

What is there to list?
Do you think that there are large parts of the international community who have agreed the occupation is over? But the BBC overlooks them?

Touché.

So the CIA counts. But not enough, it seems

Our State Department contradicts itself by simultaneously describing it as “occupied” while stating that the troops have been withdrawn. One would almost think it were a political organization trying to please both sides. Oh, wait…

One might. But another might think that removing troops is not enough to end the occupation. Take it up with the CIA. Ask them for definitions and such.

It’s only relevant if you can cite the parts of the Hague Conventions and Geneva Conventions that name that as part of the legal definition of “occupation”. You have been challenged to do that, and so far you have failed.

I listed those things to show that Israel has not 'seperated from its enemies'. I've already clarified that to you.

I do not need to define 'occupation'. I trust the CIA to understand what the word means. I trust the international community to understand what 'occupation' means and I trust the BBC to report the understanding of that community. If this argument by authority is not good enough for you, and you prefer to argue legal definitions, then go find a lawyer.

If they are all over the place then you should have no problem compiling a list. I’m not going to go through old threads trying to guess what you think the good parts are and try to build your argument for you, that’s your job. You made the claim, now back it up. If the points are as good as you seem to think they are, you should take special satisfaction in demolishing my arguments in open forum,

But I predict you will not be able to do that. Why? Because the same arguments back then only convinced you. There is no reason to believe they are any more convincing today.

Because the PA's recognition of Israel is a secret.
Just recently, Abbas (again) ruled out a return to armed struggle:
http://www.france24.com/en/20100524...mahmoud-abbas-settlements-peace-boycott-hamas

ETA: he also reiterated acceptance of an international military force to keep peace on the borders of a two-state solution.

Right, your argument here is based on taking a neutral term, “separation” and loading it up with as much of an emotional charge as you can.

No. My argument is based on the points I made regarding how the Israeli government controls the lives of people who have no vote in Israeli elections. You pretended that was something to do with the definition of 'occupation' so that you could say: 'that has nothing to do with occupation'.

 

[WildCat]

Going with the "nuh-uh" rebuttal, I see.

No need when someone is claiming a mouse is really a horse.

 

[Thunder]

I don't need to define occupation. If you think I'm going to have a legal debate with you, then you are mistaken.

I applaud your refusal to get into useless and senseless debates over long established legal and political facts on the ground.

Israel recognizes the authority of the United Nations to make declarations over the legal status of various issues, like their demarcation of the Israel/Lebanon border and the status of the Shebaa Farms. Well, the UN also declares Gaza to still be under Israeli Occupation, and if the UN is right in regards to the Israel/Lebanon border and the Shebaa Farms, then they are most likely also right about the status of Gaza.

 

[FireGarden]

Mycroft,
Some more people you can accuse of being disgusting revisionists -- shame on them:

British government travel advice for Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories -- includes Gaza.
http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/travel-and...ntry/middle-east-north-africa/israel-occupied


From 2005:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3135368,00.html

Only an agreement between Israel and the Palestinians regarding the control over the land, air and sea passages in Gaza will permit the international community to acknowledge the end of Israel’s occupation in Gaza, Javier Solana, the EU High Representative for EU Common Foreign and Security, said Tuesday during a meeting with Meretz-Yahad Party leader Yossi Beilin in Jerusalem.

 

[bikerdruid]

And before you say it, yes, I am aware that the 28 dead in Israel were "just jews".

i would NEVER say something like that.
you are bound and determined to paint me as a 'jew-hater' and you are dead wrong.
so do you think that the hundreds of kids killed were 'just arabs'?

 

[FireGarden]

No need when someone is claiming a mouse is really a horse.

Truely eye-opening. I don't see why I didn't see it before. Thank you for your help shedding light on this complex matter.

Meanwhile, on planet Earth, I prefer to trust the BBC, CIA, UK goverment and EU representatives.

 

[Thunder]

Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth
And before you say it, yes, I am aware that the 28 dead in Israel were "just jews".

I guess when facts, logic, reason, and history are NOT on your side, you might as well just play the "Jew-card".

Falsely and maliciously accusing folks of anti-Semitism, is petty pathetic and a disgrace to the millions of Jews who have died at the hands of REAL anti-Semitism.

I think you owe Bikerdruid an apology.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

i would NEVER say something like that.
you are bound and determined to paint me as a 'jew-hater' and you are dead wrong.

your position is easily deduced from your many posts and comments against jews.

that is why i was asking the question for further clarification.
it is not much of a secret that you do hold hatred for jews.
so....why do you hate jews so?

(See what I did there?)

 

[truethat]

More of a double standard than anything. Cypriots overall are not nutjobs who employ suicide bombing, amongst a few worth mentioning, such as the PLO/Hamas/PFLP, and much more attention is given to the Israel-Palestinian conflict since its more news-worthy.

So not the same situation. Just people, the 'international community' or whatever you want to call it have become more complacent with the Turkish occupation (not as a result of war) whilst the Turks harp on about supposed Israel atrocities/occupation/etc.

More of a communal foot-in-mouth moment for the Turks than anything...

Most people are not nut jobs until you add religion to the case.


In addition your commentary on the Turkish is irrelevant!

 

[WildCat]

Truely eye-opening. I don't see why I didn't see it before. Thank you for your help shedding light on this complex matter.

Meanwhile, on planet Earth, I prefer to trust the BBC, CIA, UK goverment and EU representatives.

How many IDF troops are occupying Gaza again? Just a rough estimate will do, thanks!

 

[Thunder]

How many IDF troops are occupying Gaza again? Just a rough estimate will do, thanks!

which member state of the United Nations has ultimate sovereignty over the Gaza Strip?

(cue Jeopardy theme)

 

[Virus]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law

Palestinian factions collaborated with the Nazis, including the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem who was Yasser Arafat's uncle.