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Did Abdelbaset al-Megrahi blow up Pan Am 103?

PFLP-GC and Libya. They had quite a strong Libyan connection of course. Might have bought a radio there to use in a bomb, why not? Except I don't believe Toshiba make their cheap radio manuals out of asbestos.

Might have got hold of an MST-13 timer, why not? Except, I don't believe anyone with an MST-13 timer would have set it to blow up PA103 at 19.03 GMT. Not Megrahi, not Jibril, not Elias.

I think Bunntamas is still clinging to that dodgy cable where the informant makes up the story about Megrahi travelling to Heathrow from Malta, with the bomb, in order to intercept his luggage, set the timer, and disappear while the unacompanied luggage continues. Which is total fantasy. It's obviously the work of someone who knows that if he can make something up to implicate Megrahi and Fhimah, he has a shot at the $4 million reward money.

For someone so keen on the findings of the Zeist court, she's awfully keen on "evidence" that was either rejected by the court, or not of sufficient quality to present to the court on the first place.

Rolfe.
 
Actually I just noticed an error Bunntamas made, too late to edit my post. Megrahi isn't Gadaffi's close clansman. There was a BBC article last week saying the Gadaffi and Megrahi tribes (with different spellings) are now in conflict. The Megrahi tribe is a large and powerful one, but it's not Gadaffi's.

Bunntamas insists on scrupulous accuracy from us, so this needs to be pointed out.

Rolfe.

I never said they were the same clan. I said the clans were close. Twisting words and accuracy are quite far apart.
You're good at the former, particularly when it comes to "dodgy" and trying to turn CTs into evidence.
 
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Suggest you do some homework. Crawl out from under the JREF rock, Rolfe's walls of text and the FEW others who defend Megrahi, and look up – Sennusi – Gaddaffi’s brother-in-law and Megrahi’s former boss, Gaddaffi himself (Megrahi's close clansman),

Actually I just noticed an error Bunntamas made, too late to edit my post. Megrahi isn't Gadaffi's close clansman. There was a BBC article last week saying the Gadaffi and Megrahi tribes (with different spellings) are now in conflict. The Megrahi tribe is a large and powerful one, but it's not Gadaffi's.

I never said they were the same clan. I said the clans were close.

I've multi quoted this exchange here in this post - you can click the little arrow link icon next to each [quote] box to go directly back to the posts in question to make sure I haven't changed anything (apart from adding yellow highlights)

You claim that Megrahi and Ghadaffi are "close clansman"

Rolfe points out that they are not close clansmen and the clans in question are now in fact fighting each other.

Then you state that you said they were close and not the same clan.

No word twisting required, you claimed they were close and then made out that Rolfe had misquoted you.

trying to turn CTs into evidence.

We are not trying to turn CTs into evidence. We have spent a long time trying to find evidence to support or disprove the official line as regards Lockerbie.

There is a huge difference here.

None of us know who did Lockerbie, why or how, there isn't enough evidence to prove anything.

This is a sceptics forum, we don't believe in anything until it is proved by evidence, this is the defintion of sceptic.

Have a look here for a page outlining the tribes in Libya.

Ghadaffi belongs to one tribe Qadhafa, Megrahi to the Magariha tribe.

Ghadaffi is a conniving and politically very clever dictator. The Magariha tribe is one of the largest and most powerful of other tribes, and the link you post states that Abdullah Sanussi is "married to the sister of Ghadaffis wife"

This is not exactly unusual, a dictator sets up a marriage to ally himself with the largest and most powerful tribe in the country, it does not at all follow that Megrahi, and Ghadaffi are best buddies, the press is awash with statements that Megrahi blackmailed Ghadaffi from Scottish jail.

None of the clan stuff is relevant in the slightest to Lockerbie.
 
Here's another one.

this man, Megrahi, and his ruler, fellow tribesman for whom Megrahi kept silent....


I feel slightly uncomfortable about the use of the word "clan" in this context. "Clan" is a Gaelic word meaning "children". It's pretty specific to the social system that was in operation in Scotland up to about the 18th century.

The system in Arab society is tribal. These are tribes we're talking about. Indeed, there are similarities, but "tribe" is a perfectly normal, common, everyday word in English. Why can't we use it?

Rolfe.
 
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But as Ambrosia says, it's all pretty academic. Megrahi is related to some pretty unpleasant people. Megrahi is acquainted with some pretty unpleasant people. Indeed, there are a lot of unpleasant people in Libya. Is Megrahi himself one of them? Who knows. I wouldn't die of shock, but we simply have no evidence. He is not one of those who ever appeared on the radar in connection with any of the other atrocities we know were committed by the Libyan regime.

As an aside, I wonder how Bunntamas herself would react to the accusation that she must have carried out some atrocity, personally, solely on the grounds that some of her extended family, or some people she worked with, were implicated in crime?

I get tired saying it, but no matter how many evil deeds were done by Megrahi's relations, or Libyans in general, we can only accuse Megrahi of being "the Lockerbie bomber" if we have some DIRECT EVIDENCE LINKING HIM TO THE ACTUAL CRIME.

There is none. Absolutely zero. Nothing at all. Zilch. Nada.

The only, single, sole piece of evidence linking Megrahi to the Lockerbie bombing was the assertion that he was the man who bought the clothes from Tony Gauci. We've presented a positive gallery of pictures showing how the word "uncertain" doesn't even begin to describe the confusion surrounding this identification. Just about any middle-aged clean-shaven man with dark curly or frizzy hair was liable to be fingered as "resembling" the purchaser.

For comparison, look at these two pictures.

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/10_03/hussmenezsplit1710_468x353.jpg

In Tony Gauci's world, might these have been picked out as the same person from a photo-line-up, especially if the pictures were less well-defined than shown, and in black and white? (Hint: left is Hussain Osman and right is Jean Charles de Menezes.) Dammit, if either of these had rather longer hair, they'd do quite well as the mystery shopper as well!

However, the primary, crucial decision from which everything else flows in the Zeist case is that the clothes were purchased on 7th December. Unless that was the day of purchase, Megrahi could not have been the purchaser, because he wasn't there.

The court's decision to choose 7th December was made independently, apparently without considering Megrahi's lack of an alibi for that day and that day only. It completely flew in the face of the evidence regarding the football match, the weather, and the absence of Christmas lights. It would be a stretch even to say there was an outside chance it might have been 7th December.

There was of course a day that fitted the evidence much better, 23rd November. However, the court ignored that, latched on to the almost outside chance of 7th December, and declared they were quite satisfied that the purchase had in fact occurred on that day. Beyond any reasonable doubt. Absolutely. We're quite sure about this.

What????? :jaw-dropp

SCCRC said:
the Commission formed the view that there is no reasonable basis in the trial court’s judgment for its conclusion that the purchase of the items from Mary’s House, took place on 7 December 1988.

In the Commission’s view, [....] the purchase took place at a time when there was no evidence at trial that the applicant was in Malta.


Whatever else the SCCRC dismissed or ignored, its crucial finding was right on the money. Because the assumed date of the purchase from Mary's House is the single key finding from which everything else in the Zeist judgement flowed. And it was perverse to the point of irrationality.

It was only after making this perverse finding, that the court proceeded to note that Megrahi had been around on that day. Fancy that! So even though the identification was as shaky as hell, and in fact added up to a non-identification ("Not the man I saw in my shop...."), the judges concluded that because Megrahi had been physically in the vicinity on the (already-decided) day of purchase, he bought the clothes. Beyond any reasonable doubt. Absolutely. We're quite sure about this.

Then what? Megrahi was at the airport in Malta on the morning of the Lockerbie disaster, catching a plane for Tripoli. At the same time, a plane was leaving for Frankfurt, where it was possible to connect (by way of a four-hour stopover) with another plane that then connected with PA103. The police had become convinced the bomb had travelled on this plane, but despite intensive and prolonged investigation they were never able to find any evidence to support this conviction. (On the contrary, the lack of any evidence from an investigation that determined begins to look like pretty good evidence of absence.)

The judges concluded that the bomb suitcase was smuggled on board the Frankfurt flight, despite the complete and utter absence of any evidence for that, and indeed "considerable and quite convincing evidence that that could not have happened".

Why?

Because the man they had already decided bought the clothes was at the airport at the time. [I'm not making this up, you know.]

No, he didn't have any suitcase with him. He didn't check in any luggage. He didn't go airside. He didn't have any accomplice. All he did was get on a plane for Tripoli. But he was the man who bought the clothes, we already determined that, so somehow, we know not how, the bomb must have been smuggled on to that plane. And Megrahi must have had something to do with it, even though we can't in any way say how he managed that.

That's that, beyond any reasonable doubt. Absolutely. We've quite sure about this. Guilty, life imprisonment.

:jaw-dropp :jaw-dropp :jaw-dropp :jaw-dropp :jaw-dropp :jaw-dropp :jaw-dropp

But if the purchase didn't take place on 7th December, as the SCCRC investigation concluded, then Megrahi didn't buy the clothes.

And if Megrahi wasn't the man who bought the clothes, there is NO reason at all to conclude that the bomb travelled from Malta that morning.

Which makes Megrahi someone who was getting on a plane a thousand miles and more from where a completely different plane blew up, eleven hours later.

This is what has to be confronted by anyone trying to make a case for Megrahi's guilt. Not a lot of irrelevancies about who his brother-in-law happens to be.

Rolfe.
 
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I'm pretty sure Megrahi is a nasty piece of work.

Just because he's a nasty piece of work, doesn't mean he bombed Pan-Am 103.

Has he ever responded to the issues with the Megrahi evidence? I came to this topic recently having had no real interest in the matter, and it's pretty damn obvious that unless Rolfe is lying her ass off about pretty much everything, he didn't do it.

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Removed personal attack
 
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I came to this topic recently having had no real interest in the matter, and it's pretty damn obvious that unless Rolfe is lying her ass off about pretty much everything, he didn't do it.

And that´s what makes things very simple for some people: obviously, Rolfe MUST be lying her ass off about pretty much everything, or otherwise their cherished pet theories might be wrong and the Lybia-bashers have acted as a bunch of useful idiots preventing the identification and punishment of the real culprits.
 
I'm pretty sure Megrahi is a nasty piece of work.


I'm not going to argue with you on that, because I have more than a moderate suspicion you're right. However, I then have to concede I have nothing more than a gut feeling to support that suspicion. No credible evidence at all has been produced to show that Megrahi himself (as opposed to friends and relations) was ever connected to anything "nasty".

I say "credible", because there are a number of discredited statements floating around, all seeming to stem from one circumstance. In about 1994, three years after the indictments against Megrahi and Fhimah were issued, the US DoJ circulated huge "wanted" posters offering a reward of up to $4 million to anyone who could provide evidence against them. A number of lowlifes came forward after that with various nonsensical statements about having seen both men doing this or that. None of these statements were presented in court.

On the other side of the coin, we have Megrahi's own story about what he was doing on Malta that day.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/2...port-and-life-as-secret-agent-78057-21049478/

It's perfectly possible he may be lying, but I can't prove it. I just hope he is, because even though it doesn't make things any better for our justice system, I'd far rather the man we wrongly jailed for ten years was actually a bad guy, than someone who was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Just because he's a nasty piece of work, doesn't mean he bombed Pan-Am 103.


That's what we're finding so difficult to get Bunntamas to understand. There are many bad guys in the world. They didn't all bomb PA103. Call me naive, but I want the person who actually carried out the crime in jail, not just some random villain the police decided to fit up for the crime.

Has he ever responded to the issues with the Megrahi evidence?
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Removed personal attack


You mean Bunntamas? She's a she.

Here's what I said about her recently. http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6435709

And here's what she said about herself. http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6915502

I came to this topic recently having had no real interest in the matter, and it's pretty damn obvious that unless Rolfe is lying her ass off about pretty much everything, he didn't do it.


And that´s what makes things very simple for some people: obviously, Rolfe MUST be lying her ass off about pretty much everything, or otherwise their cherished pet theories might be wrong and the Lybia-bashers have acted as a bunch of useful idiots preventing the identification and punishment of the real culprits.


Nobody needs to make a subjective judgement about whether or not I'm lying my ass off. Just read the relevant documents.

Opinion of the Court
Opinion of the Court (first appeal)
UN Observer's report of the trial
UN observer's report of the (first) appeal
SCCRC press release re. the second appeal

Other very useful documents linked from the UN observer's own web site.
http://www.i-p-o.org/lockerbie_observer_mission.htm

Journalist David Morrison's articles on these issues
The original judgement
The first appeal
The second appeal

I choose Morrison, although his articles are little-known and seldom cited in this context, because he confines himself to showing that the judgement was perverse on its own terms, without getting involved in the (admittedly highly plausible) allegations of evidence being fabricated.

These allegations can be counterproductive, because it's impossible to prove anything was fabricated, beyond any doubt - we lack sufficient information. Thus the door may be opened for the assertion that look, you haven't proved these items were fabricated, therefore you haven't proved the case against Megrahi was flawed.

This last is a non-sequitur. Even if the disputed items of evidence (the radio manual, the timer fragment, the Erac printout and so on) are entirely kosher, there is still no evidence to link Megrahi to the bombing.

The trouble is, very few people on this forum are prepared to read these documents. Certain individuals would rather snipe and jeer about "conspiracy theories" than find out what the evidence is that this "conspiracy theory" is based on.

It's based on the actual Opinion of the Court demonstrating that he didn't do it, and then just deciding to convict him anyway.

Rolfe.

ETA: If you only want to read one document, read this one. Lockerbie, a perverse verdict
 
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Nobody needs to make a subjective judgement about whether or not I'm lying my ass off. Just read the relevant documents.

Relax... I don´t say you´re lying. I say that certain parties will conclude you are lying simply from the fact that your statements here and the evidence you present to support them are inconsistent with what they want to be true.
 
A question for Rolfe.
Is the information below correct?

At the end of the Pan Am Flight 103 bombing trial an international observer appointed by the United Nations, Hans Köchler, called the verdict a "spectacular miscarriage of justice".

Even though Libya never formally admitted responsibility for Pan Am Flight 103 or UTA Flight 772, Libya "accepted responsibility for the actions of its officials" and agreed to pay compensation to the relatives of the victims.

In October 2008 Libya paid $1.5 billion into a fund which will be used to compensate:

relatives of the Lockerbie bombing victims with the remaining 20% of the sum agreed in 2003 ($2.7 billion);
American victims of the 1986 Berlin discotheque bombing;
American victims of the 1989 UTA Flight 772 bombing; and,
Libyan victims of the 1986 US bombing of Tripoli and Benghazi.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_Flight_103_conspiracy_theories


At the end of the Pan Am Flight 103 bombing trial an international observer appointed by the United Nations, Hans Köchler, called the verdict a "spectacular miscarriage of justice".[32] Even though Libya never formally admitted responsibility for Pan Am Flight 103 or UTA Flight 772, Libya "accepted responsibility for the actions of its officials" and agreed to pay compensation to the relatives of the victims.[33] In October 2008 Libya paid $1.5 billion into a fund which will be used to compensate relatives of the
  1. Lockerbie bombing victims with the remaining 20% of the sum agreed in 2003 ($2.7 billion);
  2. American victims of the 1986 Berlin discotheque bombing;
  3. American victims of the 1989 UTA Flight 772 bombing; and,
  4. Libyan victims of the 1986 US bombing of Tripoli and Benghazi.[34]


I'm not aware that any of it is wrong, shall we say. I haven't made a detailed study of that aspect.

The letter Gadaffi wrote was one of the things the SCCRC considered, and they agreed that it did not amount to an admission of responsibility. In the letter, Libya "accepted responsibility for the actions of its agents" but never at any time even acknowledged that Megrahi was a Libyan agent, never mind that any Libyan agent had had anything to do with Pan Am 103.

The money was paid in effect to bring the UN sanctions to an end, facilitate the normalisation of Libya's relations with the international community, and facilitate oil exploration by foreign companies.

Rolfe.
 
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It seems to me a bit odd for Libya to issue that letter and pay compensation of that amount if they (the Libyan government) had no knowledge of, or were not implicated in some manner.

What would they stand to gain from such concessions? ETA: Were they successful in convincing the world to normalise relations?

I was also shocked to read that South Africa was considered to be involved, even if only from a conspiracy theory aspect.
 
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Libya was over a barrel at the time. Ship Megrahi and Fhimah to Holland, write a letter accepting responsibility, and pay out a lot of money, or else these crippling sanctions will continue.

There are others more expert than myself on these matters though.

I view the South Africa theory as conspiracy theorising, personally. It appears to be the idee fixe of one person only, a certain Patrick Haseldine. He likes to write emails to assorted people claiming that I'm an MI5 or CIA agent, for some reason.

Rolfe.
 
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Libya was over a barrel at the time. Ship Megrahi and Fhimah to Holland, write a letter accepting responsibility, and pay out a lot of money, or else these crippling sanctions will continue..

I am not really familiar with all the twists and turns of Libyan politics, but hasn't Libya always been over a barrel?

If the West bought this Libyan story of contrition then it makes a mockery of the West not negotiating with terrorists.

He likes to write emails to assorted people claiming that I'm an MI5 or CIA agent, for some reason.

Rolfe.

If you are an MI5 or CIA agent, you not doing a good job of maintaining your cover.:D
 
I am not really familiar with all the twists and turns of Libyan politics, but hasn't Libya always been over a barrel?


If you want the real deal on this aspect, you need to talk to a guy who posts on Robert Black's blog as "Fullinquiry". He seems to have been an expat working in Libya during this period.

There were certainly sanctions in place against Libya even before Lockerbie, because Megrahi's globetrottings were related to procuring aircraft parts and so on and getting them to Libya despite the sanctions. However, after the indictments were issued against Megrahi and Fhimah, and Libya refused to extradite them without seeing the evidence, the US and the UK applied to the UN to impose punitive sanctions. This seems to have caused a lot of hardship in the country, allegedly including "thousands" of deaths due to lack of medical supplies (stories of people with heart attacks dying in ambulances on the way to Tunisia).

This went on for eight years, with various attempts to find a solution. Eventually a suggestion of holding a trial with no jury under Scots law in a neutral country was accepted, brokered by Nelson Mandela. Fullinquiry has said that what really swung it was an undertaking just to go after the two accused and not to try to charge Gadaffi himself, but I can't vouch for the truth of that.

The deal was that if anyone was found guilty at Zeist, Libya would pay out an eyewatering amount of money, and write a letter accepting responsibility. Even at that stage the threadbare nature of the case was fairly clear, and advice was being given to the Libyans that it simply wouldn't stand up in court. So it's quite possible Gadaffi didn't originally believe it would ever come to paying out.

Then the main plank of the prosecution case collapsed in a heap during the hearings. There was widespread speculation that the case would be abandoned, because there was so little left. However, the prosecution pressed on with a case I wouldn't give anyone a parking ticket on. The judges issued an opinion which pretty much laid out that Megrahi didn't do it (or at least, that there was no evidence at all that he had), and then said they saw a "real and convincing pattern", guilty, life imprisonment.

There was an appeal of course, but Megrahi's advocate brought it on the wrong grounds, and all that achieved was a litany of "it is not for us to substitute our opinion for that of the trial court on these matters." This left Gadaffi without much in the way of options. If he'd continued to protest Libya's non-involvement in Lockerbie, the sanctions would not have been lifted, and worse might have happened.

So he paid up (I believe the final installment didn't show up until 2008), and wrote that letter with the weasel words that don't actually admit to anything, and the sanctions were lifted and life in Libya got a fair bit better. Which is pretty much why Megrahi was being cheered at the airport when he got home - the Libyans saw him as the man who had surrendered himself to a show trial and spent ten years in jail for something he didn't do, in order to get those sanctions lifted.

Even if Gadaffi had done it, he would never have paid out that money or written that letter without being pretty much over a barrel. The only thing the letter and the money bear witness to is how hard his arm was being twisted at the time.

If the West bought this Libyan story of contrition then it makes a mockery of the West not negotiating with terrorists.


Oh, wake up and smell the coffee. The "West" negotiates with anybody it thinks it can gain advantage from.

If you are an MI5 or CIA agent, you not doing a good job of maintaining your cover.:D


I'm not responsible for Patrick Haseldine's delusions, fortunately. :D

Rolfe.
 
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There were certainly sanctions in place against Libya even before Lockerbie, because Megrahi's globetrottings were related to procuring aircraft parts and so on and getting them to Libya despite the sanctions.

Not sure if this has been covered before, but wouldn´t the bolded part be a reason to frame Megrahi, from the US point of view - after all, with him out of circulation, that whole operation would be dealt at least a serious setback, if it isn´t stopped outright.
 

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