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My argument against materialism

punshhh said:
Ok, this means that matter and energy emerged from itself presumably by the process known as inflation.
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This pretty much confirms that you didn't understand what I said.
Yes, I have been waiting for someone to state this and explain how matter is manifest in this fabric.
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Nobody know exactly - that is why physicists still have a job. Maybe matter represents displacements in spacetime - maybe something else.

But I see no reason to doubt that matter is manifest in spacetime.

I can't really see a need for a mysticism of the gaps. If the gaps are to be filled they will be filled by science.
No, but what it represents in the scheme of things.
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But if you didn't know what this "fabric" is then you would still not know what spacetime/matter/energy is. Do you acknowledge this?
 
punshhh said:
Ok, I'll take that as read for now.

Then where did the QGP come from then?
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From the Big Bang.

Did it just pop into existence with no pre-existing state.

or was there a pre-existing state.

or is it neither, but something else.

or was it always thus?
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punshhh, what is a singularity?

Why, well if I were a materialist I would ask these questions, I would want to know what i was dealing with.
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And you could to to Wikipedia and get the answers.
 
punshhh said:
Sorry I had the impression that you were stating that there is only 'does' not 'is', I stand corrected.
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Isn't that what I just said, in fact ?

So, really, every time you say "I understand" or something to that effect, in truth you don't ?

I happen to think it is worthwhile addressing what things are, we disagree.
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If you HAD understood the things you said you understood, you'd know that what you think is worthwhile adressing is IMPOSSIBLE. You CANNOT know, even in principle, what things ARE, unless you realise and admit that things ARE what they DO. It's really a simple concept.
 
yy2bggggs said:
Volume's a bit easier--Pauli exclusion principleWP
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I once said that one way to look at the universe is that it's a big database and that every thing in it is a record, with fields like "charge", "mass", etc. The "Spatial coordinate" field is indexed and unique, so two things can't occupy the same space. :D
 
punshhh said:
Ok, I'll take that as read for now.

Then where did the QGP come from then?

Did it just pop into existence with no pre-existing state.

or was there a pre-existing state.

or is it neither, but something else.

or was it always thus?

Why, well if I were a materialist I would ask these questions, I would want to know what i was dealing with.
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No. If you were a materialist those questions wouldn't make sense. And they don't. You're still asking "what was there before time ?" :rolleyes:

What is matter?
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:hb:
 
punshhh said:
Ok, I'll take that as read for now.

Then where did the QGP come from then?

Did it just pop into existence with no pre-existing state.

or was there a pre-existing state.

or is it neither, but something else.

or was it always thus?

Why, well if I were a materialist I would ask these questions, I would want to know what i was dealing with.
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The questions should be formulated by physicists, that way they stand at least a chance of being answered or at least being meaningful. The answers will also come from physicists.

But it is a hard and fast rule of Materialism never to second guess science.
 
TmoonII said:
I enjoy the discussion indeed, sir dafydd. Yet would request balance from the questioners posts with a few bits to process ending with periods. Materialism/idealism evolves in many forms.
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Excuse me, burden of proof is on the one making the claim, there is no false parity here.

So you made soem claims about QM and consciousness,which you never supported, that is your burden to support, not ours to just not comment.

So what evidence is there that consciousness is needed to do anything with QM?
 
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kenkoskinen said:
yy2bggggs in post #1552 you claim the strong force holds the atom and its constituents together. Not so ... it holds quarks together to form protons, neutrons and mesons. A secondary nuclear force (sometimes called the residual nuclear force)
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Could you at least read some introductory physics?
It is the freaking strong force! Where does your information and data come from?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_force
It is the holds protons and neutrons together to form atomic nuclei. It also over powers the electromagnetic repulsion between positively charged nuclear protons and keeps them within nuclei.
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It is the strong force.
The secondary force also over powers the electromagnetic attraction between nuclear protons and orbiting electrons.
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What the Fred?

No it doesn't.
You also claim that gravity keeps large objects like planets held together. Not so ... the electromagnetic force primarily does that. Gravity causes things to fall and keeps planets in orbit around stars & moons in orbit around planets etc.

You also said a force isn't energy. Not so ... it, like matter is energy and a force's bosons are also subject to E = Mc2.

In post #1689 you claim energy in quantum mechanics is a wave form. In QM fermions and bosons can be particles or waves as detected in experiments. However they cannot be both at the same time.
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Excuse me, you are wrong and talking out of your hat, this is nonsense of the first water.

If you really want to talk about physics don't spout nonsense.

Bose-Einstein Condensate proves you wrong, as does the double slit with bucky balls.

Particles are waves all the time.
I hope this helps.
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Not a chance, you are very wrong or very poor at communication.
 
kenkoskinen said:
yy2bggggs You misunderstand, the strong interaction is the same as strong nuclear or color force. The force's bosons are gluons and these act on quarks. The secondary or residual nuclear force is much weaker and its bosons are mesons. These act on nucleons.
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Intoductory physics
"In the 1970’s, further understanding revealed these mesons to be combinations of quarks and gluons, transmitted between nucleons that themselves were made of quarks and gluons. This new model allowed the strong forces that held nucleons together, to be felt in neighboring nucleons, as residual strong forces."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_force
Gravity is not primary in holding together planets and comets.
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Is sure does hold planets together, they are vastly held together by gravity, how many partciles on a planet can travel at the escape velocity?
These are made of molecules and these are "glued" together via covalent bonds of the electromagnetic force. Stars however are plasmas and consist of massive numbers of ions. Gravity is primary in holding them together.
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Oh really, so volcanos can spew their lav in to outer sapce, and why not?
What is escape velocity?
Energy is one of the most difficult things to define. It comes in many forms and has several characteristics such as transforming from one form into another and has differing qualities. You want to talk about potential energy while I was referring to Einstein's famous equation connecting mass and energy. No one has yet come up with an all encompassing definition. However in the E = Mc2 sense it applies to all Standard Model particles including bosons or force carriers.
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Take it the SMT buddy, talk to some real physicists. Yes, everything is energy.
 
kenkoskinen said:
However it is still unexplained and one way to express the mystery is to say what I did i.e. it appears to ...
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Seems to me that way of expressing it is misleading because, whatever the true explanation, that one is known to be wrong. You might as well say 'fire appears to be caused by phlogiston'. YMMV.
 
punshhh said:
These particles or atoms are some how made of energy.
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No, chicken eggs are not some how made of £1.50. Chicken eggs are made of eggs. Atoms are made of fundamental particles, like quarks, gluons, and electrons.
How is this mass and volume formed out of energy?
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Wakalixes is not a thing you form stuff out of. Wakalixes is the price you pay to buy things to make stuff out of.

Mass is formed, perhaps, by something like the Higgs mechanismWP; or perhaps, by something entirely unlike it. Volume, the Pauli exclusion principle.
 
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Robin said:
This pretty much confirms that you didn't understand what I said.
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I had difficulty relating the bachelor analogy to matter.

Nobody know exactly - that is why physicists still have a job. Maybe matter represents displacements in spacetime - maybe something else.

But I see no reason to doubt that matter is manifest in spacetime.

I can't really see a need for a mysticism of the gaps. If the gaps are to be filled they will be filled by science.

But if you didn't know what this "fabric" is then you would still not know what spacetime/matter/energy is. Do you acknowledge this?
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Yes I acknowledge this, I am seeking acknowledgement from the materialists too.

I still see the potential for mysteries, if they extend beyond horizon, within which we are contained.
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punshhh said:
I still see the potential for mysteries, if they extend beyond horizon, within which we are contained.
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Energy is an abstraction, though, not a kind of thing. Matter is a form of energy, not made up of energy. A dozen eggs is £1.50; it's not made of £1.50.

To speak of what energy is made of is a reification. £1.50 is made up of whatever the thing you have that is worth £1.50 is made of. Sometimes that's coinage. Sometimes it's paper Brazilian currency. Sometimes it's eggs.
 
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