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Merged al Megrahi and the Lockerbie bombing

Did this police chief ever get identified or expand on this statement?
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=14908

A former Scottish police chief has given lawyers a signed statement claiming that key evidence in the Lockerbie bombing trial was fabricated.

The retired officer - of assistant chief constable rank or higher - has testified that the CIA planted the tiny fragment of circuit board crucial in convicting a Libyan for the 1989 mass murder of 270 people.

The police chief, whose identity has not yet been revealed, gave the statement to lawyers representing Abdelbaset Ali Mohmed Al Megrahi, currently serving a life sentence in Greenock Prison.

Note that this affidavit fully backs up the statement of the Mebo director and employee - despite the dedicated efforts Rolfe and Caustic Logic have spent on the internet stalking, abusing and harrassing these two individuals.
 
Hmmm, the Golfer.

Interesting wrinkle. It would be nice if what he said could be substantiated, because it fits very very well with a lot of the suspicions arising for other reasons. But he has never come forward in public, and he was a Detective Sergeant, which isn't all that senior a position.

Here's what the SCCRC had to say about him.

In the initial application to the Commission, reference was made to a former police officer who, it was alleged, worked at a senior level in the police investigation and could provide “sensitive” information about the case. A number of the allegations made on behalf of the applicant were based on information apparently provided by this witness. The true identity of the witness was not disclosed in the application; instead, a pseudonym, “the Golfer”, was used. The Commission’s enquiry team interviewed the Golfer, a former detective sergeant, on three separate occasions during which he made a number of allegations concerning the conduct of the police investigation. As a result of its enquiries the Commission is satisfied that the Golfer was involved in the police investigation into the bombing of PA103. However, there was a vast array of inconsistencies and contradictions between, and sometimes within, his statements to the Commission. There were also inconsistencies between what he told the Commission and what the submissions alleged he had told the applicant’s former legal representatives. In addition the Commission considered some of his allegations to be implausible when considered alongside other evidence in the case, and unsupported or refuted when viewed in the context of the Commission’s other findings (see below). In light of this the Commission has serious misgivings as to the credibility and reliability of this witness and was not prepared to accept his allegations.


Well, I don't necessarily believe something is unfounded just because the SCCRC says so, or not without a look at the 800+ page report and 13 volumes of appendices that we never got to see. (Now if someone would just hand that over to Wikileaks, it would be good.) On the other hand, it doesn't get us any further.

And no, the Golfer never backed up Edwin Bollier or Ulrich Lumpert. Yes, he said the MST-13 timer fragment was planted by the CIA, but we can all work that one out without benefit of Edwin.

I don't know why you're so keen on Edwin anyway. Ex-Stasi agent, suspected CIA asset playing a double game, and the guy who was responsible for telling the cops that Megrahi was at the airport on 21st December 1988 under a false name and they should go after him.

There's a school of thought that says Edwin publishes such blatant falsehoods about the timer fragment specifically to cause interested parties to dismiss the whole thing as conspiracy theorising.

Rolfe.
 
Holy crap that's one poorly done investigation.

Ding!

I'm assuming this was more down to desperately wanting to find someone guilty rather than actual malice against Megrahi/Libya?

I've been mulling over the Lockerbie case recently, especially in light of recent events in Libya.

The theory that looks the most credible and was the one the investigation first followed before it got all political was it was Jibril and the PFLP-GC what done it, as a revenge attack for the USS Vincennes disaster, on the orders of Iran.

It remains a little known fact that at the time the PFLP-GC was HQed in Libya, so Libya is in fact connected to the whole thing, (if we assume that the PFLP-GC theory is correct) and seeing as Megrahi was at the time a member of the Libya Secret Service he could well have had "something" to do with it all.

There could well be intelligence somewhere that points to his slight involvement somehow that's never seen the light of day.

All that being said there isn't enough evidence to convict Megrahi of anything, a fact that the judges in their judgement actually point out, before convicting him anyway :confused:

The whole thing stinks. I would not be at all surprised if some statements are made after Ghadaffi is done and dusted to accept entirely the conclusions of the Zeist trial so the entire sorry story gets swept under the carpet forevermore.
 
As I've been saying for a while, if you want to convict Megrahi of any involvement in the Lockerbie bombing, you'd have to come up with a completely different case, de novo.

The case as presented at Zeist was entirely based on two allegations. One, that Megrahi bought the clothes from Tony Gauci, and two, that the bomb was smuggled on to KM180 that morning by persons unknown, but with Megrahi somehow facilitating this by his presence at the airport.

He didn't buy the clothes, and the bomb wasn't on board KM180.

Now anyone is welcome to start again and try to construct a new case against Megrahi, but so far it hasn't been tried and we have no idea what it would consist of. In particular, if the bomb didn't travel on KM180 that morning, Megrahi was verifiably nowhere near the scene of the actual crime.

Rolfe.
 
Was this the thread Bunntamas intended to bump? Or maybe she didn't want to address any of the recent points?

Chillzero? LGR, even?

Rolfe.
 
I still favor the Chicago Cop Scenario: Someone is guilty: We just need to find who that is; damn the evidence.
 
I still favor the Chicago Cop Scenario: Someone is guilty: We just need to find who that is; damn the evidence.

I favoured that explanation on first read. The deeper you dig into the whole thing the less that seems to make sense.

I think that something very very shady was going on, either conducted by the US which the UK knew all about, or both governements together. I think the investigation started off on the right foot, but quickly got swamped by politcal stuff and the need to keep something unrelated quiet.

Once Megrahi and Fhima were indicted then there was some measure of "we need to find *someone* guily for this" cop syndrome, and now we are in "case closed, nothing to see here, move along please" territory.
 
Rolfe said:
But really, if Megrahi didn't buy the clothes he didn't do it. It's that simple.

I don't understand why this is necessarily true.


Rolfe tries to explain why this is, in fact, necessarily true.

I don't believe this answers my question.
How does it definitively exclude other scenarios, where, for example, the clothing was bought by someone else who had contact with (stayed at same address, perhaps as) the person who - later - put it in the suitcase, and onto the plane?


Rolfe tries again, despite not really understanding what we're talking about here - who is this someone else, who was staying at what address, who put what on the plane where - because none of that appears in the evidence.

Sounds similar to the passport found at Ground Zero in NY.


This is a bit of a non-sequitur in context, referring as it does to an unrelated post about the "asbetos" radio manual. Nevertheless several posters try to explain why this is a bit more anomalous than the Ground Zero passport.

So I just wondered if you had ay further comment. Do you now understand why, if Megrahi didn't buy the clothes, the entire scenario of the Malta introduction falls apart?

Rolfe.
 
So I just wondered if you had ay further comment. Do you now understand why, if Megrahi didn't buy the clothes, the entire scenario of the Malta introduction falls apart?

Rolfe.
No, and no - not as you worded it initially.
 
I favoured that explanation on first read. The deeper you dig into the whole thing the less that seems to make sense.

I think that something very very shady was going on, either conducted by the US which the UK knew all about, or both governements together. I think the investigation started off on the right foot, but quickly got swamped by politcal stuff and the need to keep something unrelated quiet.

Once Megrahi and Fhima were indicted then there was some measure of "we need to find *someone* guily for this" cop syndrome, and now we are in "case closed, nothing to see here, move along please" territory.


I'm inclined to go along with all that. I'm not entirely sure Richard Marquise is anything more than the "Chicago cop" figure, because why otherwise would he keep indulging in hit-and-run forum posts blindly insisting the verdict was correct? In contrast, Cannistraro never raises his head above the parapet.

But the more I look at it, the more a deliberate cover-up seems inescpable. Whether it's really of something unrelated, I'm not so sure. I don't know how seriously to take Susan Lindauer, but some of what she says about the planned PFLP-GC operation being triggered to hit PA103 precisely because of McKee and others being on it is interesting. It would require some pretty nifty footwork though, because I don't think that trip was planned more than a day or two in advance. (It's exactly what Lester Coleman has been alleging for years though.)

Rolfe.
 
Chillzero is ill, and about to be incommunicado while on holiday. However, I'll link to a post I made in a different thread that explains in more detail how the finding that Megrahi bought the cloths is crucial to the entre case against him, and how that case evaporates completely if indeed he did not buy the clothes (which the SCCRC says he didn't).

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6958794

Rolfe.
 
As with most cover ups/conspiracy theory's I wonder just how many people would have to be involved in this one?

With Libya's history and the madness of Gaddafi I do not find it in the slightest hard to believe that the right man was convicted. I admit that my opinion is formed without spending hours and hours either reading the posts on here or researching.

Libyans also claim not to be responsible for the death of PC Yvonne Fletcher and the bombing of a German discos. Maybe they were set up there too.

I wonder if this falls into the category of 'always support the underdog/the big bad system can not be trusted'
I moved all the PC Fletcher material to its own thread. Please discuss it there. Thanks.
Posted By: kmortis
 
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As with most cover ups/conspiracy theory's I wonder just how many people would have to be involved in this one?


We discussed that earlier. Five, certainly. Cannistraro, Orkin, Thurman, Hayes and Feraday. When you get beyond that, it's difficult to tell the difference between meaningful involvement in the conspiracy and what another poster called the "Chicago cop syndrome".

With Libya's history and the madness of Gaddafi I do not find it in the slightest hard to believe that the right man was convicted.


Well, of course it's easy to believe that someone connected with a terrorist regime was responsible for a terrorist act. Just as it's easy to believe that a known bank robber robbed a bank. However, just as there is more than one bank robber in the world, there is more than one gang of terrorist thugs in the world. In order to know whether a particular bank robber robbed a particular bank, or a particular gang of terrorist thugs carried out a particular atrocity, it is necessary to examine the actual evidence.

Even more so in this case, because Megrahi was not a bank robber or a terrorist thug. He was someone who moved in the same social circles as terrorist thugs, which is an important difference.

I admit that my opinion is formed without spending hours and hours either reading the posts on here or researching.


Well, there you go then. I could just as easily say I believed George Bush was responsible for 9/11, although "my opinion is formed without spending hours and hours either reading the posts on here or researching". It might be different if I actually looked into the evidence though.

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Removed material split to new thread


I wonder if this falls into the category of 'always support the underdog/the big bad system can not be trusted'


And I wonder if your post falls into the category of "I have no clue what I'm talking about but I'll say something anyway"?


Rolfe.
 
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As with most cover ups/conspiracy theory's I wonder just how many people would have to be involved in this one?

Quite a few, at least in passive terms. The whole thing stinks and I have a hard time believing no one involved in the investigation noticed it at the time. As far as actually planting evidence and consciously promoting falsehoods, probably a much saller number, mostly at the CIA and the UK's now-defunct RARDE, with some questionable behavior at both FBI and Scottish police levels.

With Libya's history and the madness of Gaddafi I do not find it in the slightest hard to believe that the right man was convicted. I admit that my opinion is formed without spending hours and hours either reading the posts on here or researching.

Indeed, you're not alone in either regard.

Edited by kmortis: 
Removed material split to new thread


I wonder if this falls into the category of 'always support the underdog/the big bad system can not be trusted'

That mindset can help one grasp the concept more readily, and however you get there, the realization of how totally flawed the case was should feed into the second. Trust in authority and process has, in this case anyway, left most of us unable to see the most likely actual truth of the attack. London.

Hope that helps.
 
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So, am I to believe that with all the oil wealth of Gaddafi he could not have hired a legal team at least as searching as Rolfe?? Have you not noticed the pull Gaddafi has at his disposal when he is upset? Why in the world would he not just hire a Rolfe type person to clear the apparent pattsie? If it is so obvious that folk on here can put together a water tight case why was it not done?

As for five people being involved: that has to be wrong. Did five people do all the investigation work, including forensics, and taking all witness statements? Did five people convince all involved not to go after the actual real perpetrators be they Iranian, Syrian etc? I am sure there will have been dozens and dozens of people involved in researching this in the early days trying to find any lead, not just five. And you are saying that at each point one of those people found a clue to Iran or where ever they were just shut down?

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So, am I to believe that with all the oil wealth of Gaddafi he could not have hired a legal team at least as searching as Rolfe?? Have you not noticed the pull Gaddafi has at his disposal when he is upset? Why in the world would he not just hire a Rolfe type person to clear the apparent pattsie? If it is so obvious that folk on here can put together a water tight case why was it not done?


Good question. Go ask Bill Taylor why he took the line he did, and why he dropped the "special defence of incrimination", and why he only called two defence witnesses after citing a very large number originally.

You might also examine the Libyan influence over the legal team - the original Libyan defence lawyer being ousted by a Gadaffi placeman and then resigning. This was something specifically referred to by the UN observer. Not quite sure what that was all about.

However, the short version is that the evidence presented in court should never have led to a guilty verdict. The opinion of the court pretty much sets out how Megrahi didn't do it - or at least, that there's no evidence that he did - then suddenly announces the judges have determied there is a "clear and convincing pattern", so guilty.

The defence strategy, as devised by Bill Taylor, was to make the prosecution prove its case. He believed the prosecution hadn't done that, not by a metric mile (and he was factually correct in that belief). He therefore chose not to mount much of a defence. The main concern in all this is that the judges looked at a case that was at the very least absolutely heaving with shed-loads of extremely reasonable doubt, and brought in a guilty verdict anyway.

It's easy after the event to say, Bill Taylor should have said this or that, of course. And certainly as far as the appeal goes, he screwed up. But on the simple face of it, the prosecution did not have a case, but the judges convicted anyway.

As for five people being involved: that has to be wrong. Did five people do all the investigation work, including forensics, and taking all witness statements? Did five people convince all involved not to go after the actual real perpetrators be they Iranian, Syrian etc? I am sure there will have been dozens and dozens of people involved in researching this in the early days trying to find any lead, not just five. And you are saying that at each point one of those people found a clue to Iran or where ever they were just shut down?


You said you haven't read any of the threads, or the background material. I think you need to do that.

My reference to the Yvonne Fletcher and disco bomb were supposed to be sarcastic. I didn't actually expect someone to come back and refute them. Do you not realize that to Arabs Mosad it responsible for everything that ever goes wrong, including most terrorist attacks perpetrated by Arabs. According to Libyans it is mossad that continues to kill civilians in Iraq,

Also, as I remember it Libya pulled their people out of the embassy before anyone had chance to interview them. The British government had it's hands tied as there was a threat of the possibility of British people coming to harm in Libya.


Not treating the references to Yvonne Fletcher or the disco bombing as sarcastic. I'm aware of the connections, but not an expert in either of these cases. I have seen rational people question the responsibility for the Fletcher murder, but I don't know how well their case stands up to scrutiny.

If I go to JFK threads or Moon landing threads am I likely to find you guys busy there too?


No.

Rolfe.
 
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I'm porting this back from the split thread because it belongs here.

RicBritain said:
So, am I to believe that with all the oil wealth of Gaddafi he could not have hired a legal team at least as searching as Rolfe?? Have you not noticed the pull Gaddafi has at his disposal when he is upset? Why in the world would he not just hire a Rolfe type person to clear the apparent pattsie? If it is so obvious that folk on here can put together a water tight case why was it not done?


Gaddafi is not entirely rational so trying to model his behaviour is kinda tricky.

A few things you have to remember. Handing over the suspects was part of Gaddafi's ticket to rehabilitation. No point in spoiling that by throwing in a bunch of fancy lawyers in with them. Secondly Gaddafi would assume that we would rig the trial (after all he would). Thirdly Gaddafi is paranoid (not unreasonably). Would you really expect him to trust a scotish lawyer (scotish law is non standard enough that you would need a specialist) not to side with the establishment?


It's all a bit complicated. The defendants engaged their own Libyan lawyers well before the trial started - at the time of the indictments I think. Then of course they needed a Scottish law team for the actual trial. Only Scots lawyers have right of audience in a Scottish court.

Then Gadaffi insisted on appointing his own Libyan law team, and the original Libyan lawyer removed himself from the case due to irreconcilable differences. The defendants had no say in this at all. Im a bit hazy about what it was all about, though the UN observer to the trial was very critical. It may have had something to do with the abandoning of the special defence of incrimination, which was a big problem with the conduct of the defence.

And of course, we DID rig the trial. What else can you call that judgement? Although nobody has been able to offer an adequate explanation for why the judges produced the perverse Opinion they produced, and they're not telling of course.

Rolfe.
 
As with most cover ups/conspiracy theory's I wonder just how many people would have to be involved in this one?

Probably a similar number of people that were involved with the Iran Contra debacle.

The handwaving away stuff because it's a CT and therefore must have involved some impossible number of conspirators is about as useful as believing someone is guilty just because they were convicted. Usually it's correct but not always.

There are two main schools of thought as to who was responsible for Lockerbie.

i) Iran did it via the PFLP-GC as revenge for the Vincennes shootdown of an Iranian passenger plane.

ii) Libya did it as revenge for the 1986 air raid, or to strike at the West for sanctions dating back to 1982.

It's entirely possible that both of the above are true. There is evidence to support both i) and ii)

Whoever is ultimately responsible for the actual bombing, it's plausible that there was similar to IranContra "arms/drugs for hostages" shenanigans going on that US/UK politicians have been furiously covering up ever since.
 

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