General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[IDB87]

you must be reading a different article then I am.

the article that I posted, says that a new law may be passed that makes it illegal to boycott goods, companies, agencies, schools, etc...due to them existing within a certain part of Israel.

Same article.

After a lengthy debate on the House floor, the Knesset voted late Monday evening to advance a bill that would place heavy sanctions against bodies that advocate a boycott against Israel, or against specific areas of the country such as the West Bank.

The bolded is the bit you snipped out. That's a little dishonest.

 

[IDB87]

....btw, the West Bank is NOT part of Israel. It has not been annexed and is still under Israeli military administration. Israeli civilian law does not govern the Israeli settlements, and Israeli settlers go to military and NOT civilian courts, then they commit crimes.

so even if this stupid law is passed, an Israeli could still boycott products or institutions in the WB, and have a damn good defense in court to justify it.

Cool. But that wasn't your original concern. Your original concern was for the stifling of free expression (speech, to be exact) of the individual who would refuse to buy goods from certain Israeli companies or industries.

That is not the case. If you wish to revise your argument and exclude the individual and include a generic corporate entity, feel free. As of right now, your OP is misleading in that the individual is not impacted.

 

[Thunder]

Cool. But that wasn't your original concern. Your original concern was for the stifling of free expression (speech, to be exact) of the individual who would refuse to buy goods from certain Israeli companies or industries.

That is not the case. If you wish to revise your argument and exclude the individual and include a generic corporate entity, feel free. As of right now, your OP is misleading in that the individual is not impacted.

you are correct. the article does not say that individuals will be prosecuted if they boycott Israeli products, schools, etc...or if they orchistrate a boycott of Israeli goods, schools, etc.

but...


...how much you wanna bet that if this law is passed, folks will be prosecuted for collectively calling for the boycotting of settlement goods, schools, etc etc?

how much you wanna bet individually-owned businesses, supermarkets, stores, etc etc...will be prosecuted for boycotting West Bank goods and services?


...oh..and it looks like you have backed off your ridiculous assertion that this law seeks to ban people from boycotting Israeli goods simply because it comes from Israelis. that was very silly.

 

[IDB87]

you are correct. the article does not say that individuals will be prosecuted if they boycott Israeli products, schools, etc...or if they orchistrate a boycott of Israeli goods, schools, etc.

Noted.

...oh..and it looks like you have backed off your ridiculous assertion that this law seeks to ban people from boycotting Israeli goods simply because it comes from Israelis. that was very silly.

It's in the article you provided.

Boycotting Israeli goods that aren't produced in the West Bank or disputed territories is a boycott against Israelis.

 

[Thunder]

It's in the article you provided.

yeah? quote it.

Boycotting Israeli goods that aren't produced in the West Bank or disputed territories is a boycott against Israelis.

I see. So not only is it discrimination to boycott ALL Israeli goods & services, but its now also discrimination just to boycott Israeli goods & services that come from the West Bank?

And a boycott against West Bank Israeli products is a boycott against "Israelis"?



......hell, maybe you should take folks who seek to boycott Israeli settlement products to the International War Crimes Court, for crimes against humanity.

shall we consider the boycotting of Israeli-settler products to be the same as the Nuremberg Laws...and Kristallnacht?

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

i'll ask again.....
why do you hate arabs so much?
we are not dicsussing facts....just hatred.
you are not a fact...only humans can hate.

I pointed out the logical fallacy you have employed here, but apparently, both you and the mods* missed it.

The facts are that there are substantial historical ties between radical Islam and the German regime 1934-1944. Muslim Brotherhood founder Hassan Al-Banna shared personal correspondence with Hitler in the 1930s. In 1941, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Amin Al-Hussayni traveled to Europe for meetings with Axis leaders including an eventual meeting with Hitler Himself who informed Al-Hussayni of the plan to exterminate the jewish people outright. While in Europe, Al-Hussayni made requests that european jews not be allowed to escape into what is now modern day Israel. At the same time, Al-Hussayni served the Third Reich by raising an army for them. He assisted in the recruiting of thousands of muslims into the Waffen SS. But for the influence of Al-Hussayni, thousands of additional jews might have been spared the horrors of the Holocaust. The Nazi-allied Muslim Brotherhood went on to found both Hamas and Al-Qeada. neither Amin Al-Hussayni, nor any muslim who participated in nazi atrocities were ever prosecuted for their part in Hitlers crimes against humanity.

It is also a fact, as I have mentioned above, that the charters of both Hamas and the allegedly "moderate" Fatah both call for the annihilation of Israel and/or the extermination of its citizens.

The Day of Judgement will not come until Muslims fight the Jews, when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say, ‘O Muslims, O Abdullah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.​

- Hamas Charter, Article 7

That is what hatred looks like, BD.

These are all established facts. Facts you don't want to deal with. And as I've pointed out before, you have never asked what my beliefs about arabs and muslims are.




*@Locknar- Is it now a violation of the JREF member agreement to point out when someone is using the "When did you stop beating your wife?" trick?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_did_you_stop_beating_your_wife?

 

[IDB87]

yeah? quote it.

This will be the second time,

After a lengthy debate on the House floor, the Knesset voted late Monday evening to advance a bill that would place heavy sanctions against bodies that advocate a boycott against Israel, or against specific areas of the country such as the West Bank.

Boycotts against Israel business, academia and industry= boycotts against Israelis.

I see.

No, you certainly do not see.

So not only is it discrimination to boycott ALL Israeli goods & services,

Enacting a boycott because they are Israeli goods and services is discrimination, yes. Enacting a boycott against goods produced by settlers can be defended as they are arguably in violation of international law.

but its now also discrimination just to boycott Israeli goods & services that come from the West Bank?

Sorry Thunder - this doesn't make much sense. If it can be understood, it's fallacious, since no one has made that claim.

 

[Thunder]

Boycotts against Israel business, academia and industry= boycotts against Israelis.

err....are you saying this law is to keep Israelis from boycotting Israel?

Enacting a boycott because they are Israeli goods and services is discrimination, yes. Enacting a boycott against goods produced by settlers can be defended as they are arguably in violation of international law.

this is law is being proposed in order to make it illegal for Israelis to boycott good, products, and services...from settlers in the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and the Golan Heights.

I think you need to read the article.

 

[IDB87]

err....are you saying this law is to keep Israelis from boycotting Israel?

Is it unheard of when citizens of a country boycott goods produced there?

Perhaps there have been (or could be)Israeli companies that have participated (or want to participate) in the BDS? This law would kind of stem that.

this is law is being proposed in order to make it illegal for Israelis to boycott good, products, and services...from settlers in the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and the Golan Heights.

I think you need to read the article.

Google the BDS. This law is a result of the global effort to boycott Israeli goods. Whether or not its' moral for Israel to apply these laws to the Settlements is debatable (and I think you and I would agree on that aspect).

 

[Thunder]

Is it unheard of when citizens of a country boycott goods produced there?

is that what you think this is about?

making it illegal for companies and organizations to boycott goods, products, and services from Tel Aviv, Haifa, Beersheba, and Eilat?






oh man, this is funny stuff.

 

[IDB87]

is that what you think this is about?

I never said it was 'about' anything. You asked if it was meant to cover Israeli companies enacting boycotts on their countries goods. I asked if it was unheard of for companies/bodies to do just that.

But yes, I think it's partly meant to cover that - as bizarre as that is.

However, I don't claim to speak for the Knesset or its' lawmakers.

Since this law has 3 more revisions to go before it's voted on, we should wait until the final revision to argue about what is and is not in the legislation.

Going to post this again, for posterity's sake, since Thunder can't seem to separate Israel from the disputed territories:

After a lengthy debate on the House floor, the Knesset voted late Monday evening to advance a bill that would place heavy sanctions against bodies that advocate a boycott against Israel, or against specific areas of the country such as the West Bank.

This legislation would place sanctions against bodies that advocate a boycott against Israel OR specific areas of the country, such as the West Bank. There are two distinct groups being protected in this legislation. If you can't separate the two, that is your problem Thunder.

 

[Mycroft]

i'll ask again.....
why do you hate arabs so much?
we are not dicsussing facts....just hatred.
you are not a fact...only humans can hate.

There is nothing in what he said that isn't factual. Pointing out facts is not hate.

But if you want to make an issue of who hates who, wouldn't it make sense to examine your own hates and prejudices first?

 

[Thunder]

This legislation would place sanctions against bodies that advocate a boycott against Israel OR specific areas of the country, such as the West Bank. There are two distinct groups being protected in this legislation. If you can't separate the two, that is your problem Thunder.

I'm not familiar with any Israelis in Israel boycotting Israeli products.

Care to enlighten the audience?

now...should folks have the right to buy whatever and from whomever they like? yup. its called freedom.

 

[bikerdruid]

There is nothing in what he said that isn't factual. Pointing out facts is not hate.

But if you want to make an issue of who hates who, wouldn't it make sense to examine your own hates and prejudices first?

i have no hates or prejudices.
there is no group i feel any animosity towards.
i dislike and distrust governments, some more than others.
i take exception at hypocrites, but they come in all stripes.
there is no group of people that i have a problem with.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

i have no hates or prejudices.
there is no group i feel any animosity towards.
i dislike and distrust governments, some more than others.
i take exception at hypocrites, but they come in all stripes.
there is no group of people that i have a problem with.

If you don't hate anyone then why are you trying to draw attention away from Hamas's plan to commit genocide?

 

[IDB87]

I'm not familiar with any Israelis in Israel boycotting Israeli products.

Neither am I, nor have I (or the pending legislation) implied that Israeli citizens are the only targets of this law.

 

[Thunder]

Neither am I, nor have I (or the pending legislation) implied that Israeli citizens are the only targets of this law.

errr.......are there newsworthy examples of non-Israelis in Israel boycotting Israeli products & services?

I've heard of none.

This is about Israelis boycotting products, services, and other things coming from or relating to the West Bank.

There is nothing wrong with an Israeli or Israeli company or institution wishing to boycott products and produce from the West Bank. Folks should have the freedom to pick and choose who they buy from and who they work with.

Clearly, some in the Knesset disagree, and want to criminalize choice.

 

[IDB87]

errr.......are there newsworthy examples of non-Israelis in Israel boycotting Israeli products & services?

I've heard of none.

Do you read posts before you respond to them?

 

[IDB87]

This is about Israelis boycotting products, services, and other things coming from or relating to the West Bank.

In that article, please show me where "bodies" = Israelis.

 

[Thunder]

In that article, please show me where "bodies" = Israelis.

um.....why?

dude...what is the present-day context of this law?

what sorta events in Israel have inspired this law?

you do understand what context is, and how it shapes the debate around proposed laws...right?