Fundraiser for women's shelter turns into teabagger hate parade

[AlBell]

Exactly. Both the Qur'an and the Bible are ancient books, much of their text reflects customs and ideas from the era in which they were written. It is possible to cherry-pick a world view from either of them but ridiculous to ascribe a literal application of every word to any follower of the various religions centered on either book.

Is 9'11'01 cherry-picking?

ps: I have no idea what you are trying to say in your ps.

Educate yourself; it might come to you eventually.

 

[A'isha]

How old was the pregnant Mary when she was married to Joseph?

I believe the initial betrothal took place at between 7-9 while Joseph was in his late 30s to early 40s, which were the common ages for such, whereas the actual wedding didn't occur until a couple years later after Mary was already pregnant. These were the customs and traditions across most of the planet until very recent modern times. You can argue the horrors from a modern perspective if you wish, but contextually, such is largely irrelevent and certainly not indicative of any character or moral flaw.

Jewish law says that the minimum age for marriage for girls is 12 (though this site says that betrothals could and did take place at younger ages for girls, in the medieval period).

The Catholic Encyclopedia says that there was a popular tradition that Mary was 12-14 and Joseph ninety at the time of their marriage.

So, was the stepfather of Christ a sick pedophile too? Can we lump Judaism in with Islam when it comes to accepting the scriptural validity of child marriages?

 

[leftysergeant]

Is 9'11'01 cherry-picking?

It is over-used to prove points that it does not prove. 9/11 proves that Islam is a threat to civilization about the sane way that the Murrah bombing shows Catholicism to be a threat..

Educate yourself; it might come to you eventually.

You don't get to play that game on the grown-ups. You can't dismiss our not having been taught your superstitions as a mental defect on our part. The evidence that think we should have found may not actually exist or may not actually be evidence.

The mental defect may be yours.

 

[Bill Thompson]

People are too obsessed with what is "the right thing" to believe rather than what is logically correct.

When the Apollo Hoax craze started about 10 years ago people defended the idea that men walked on the moon out of patriotism without logically thinking if we did or not. Of course man actually did walk on the moon, but convincing oneself of this was an after-thought.

Defending the right to religion is done out of blind ideology in the fantasy of universal human rights because one of those rights is the right to believe in any religion one chooses. But you have to draw the line somewhere. If your religion demands that other people do NOT have rights, then your religion is invalid. If your religion demands that it is necessary to lie and mislead people to defend your religion's existence then your religion is invalid. If your religion demands that its rules must be interpreted literally whilst it has commandments that calls for the abuse of women, children and homosexuals, then your religion is invalid and should not exist.

People here have posted grasps at straws such as the fact that Muhammad was a pedophile was in such in such document that some Muslims say is not authentic. In the end it does not matter as much as the fact that most Muslims follow this example.

Muhammad was just a politician who had a knack for telling people what they wanted to hear. The laws of punishment, such as slicing off someone's hand for stealing was what property and shop owners wanted to hear. The stories of creation where God molded man out of clay with His own hands whilst telling other animals to just "be" makes people feel that they are special and better than animals and it is just what people wanted to hear.

If you want to debate the validity of Islam, let's do it. I have yet to loose. Anyone who believes the word of God is the Quran isn't too bright. The first passage is a prayer. So it's invalidity is incontrovertible. The world of God cannot start with a prayer. To whom is Allah praying to?

I am on the emailing list of several islamists web sites and organizations. The latest emails express a crisis in the Muslim community over evolution. Rather than eventual acceptance in Western Religion and an admission that the Bible is the "inspired" word of God, the fact that human beings share a common ancesstor with other apes is a crisis in the Muslim world because the Quran is to be interpreted literally. So Islam should loose this battle.

 

[A'isha]

If your religion demands that other people do NOT have rights, then your religion is invalid. If your religion demands that it is necessary to lie and mislead people to defend your religion's existence then your religion is invalid. If your religion demands that its rules must be interpreted literally whilst it has commandments that calls for the abuse of women, children and homosexuals, then your religion is invalid and should not exist.

Islam is not alone in any of the above. It's not even alone in ALL of the above. In fact, all of those things are true about Christianity, which is a lot more successful at getting its dictates enshrined into American law than Islam will ever be.

If you're worried about all the above, and you're focusing your ire on Islam and not people like, for instance, Mike Huckabee, then you're complaining about a cat scratch while a bear is biting your arm off.

People here have posted grasps at straws such as the fact that Muhammad was a pedophile was in such in such document that some Muslims say is not authentic. In the end it does not matter as much as the fact that most Muslims follow this example.

No they don't. Child marriages are a miniscule minority of marriages among Muslims worldwide.

If you want to debate the validity of Islam, let's do it. I have yet to loose. Anyone who believes the word of God is the Quran isn't too bright. The first passage is a prayer. So it's invalidity is incontrovertible. The world of God cannot start with a prayer. To whom is Allah praying to?

You're not off to a very good start regarding your knowledge of Islam. Allah didn't dictate to Muhammad directly, but though the angel Gabriel. The prayers are those of Gabriel to Allah, not Allah to himself.

I am on the emailing list of several islamists web sites and organizations. The latest emails express a crisis in the Muslim community over evolution. Rather than eventual acceptance in Western Religion and an admission that the Bible is the "inspired" word of God, the fact that human beings share a common ancesstor with other apes is a crisis in the Muslim world because the Quran is to be interpreted literally. So Islam should loose this battle.

Islamism is not the same as Islam. And, again, if you're worried about the religious threat to evolution education in the West, focusing on Islam rather than Christianity is missing the forest for the forest fire.

 

[A Laughing Baby]

Regarding all the defense of this in this thread, imagine the same scenario but with a crowd of Muslims yelling at Christians walking their children into a fundraiser. I assume your responses would be the same, in the name of consistent opinion.

 

[Bill Thompson]

Islam is not alone in any of the above. It's not even alone in ALL of the above. In fact, all of those things are true about Christianity, which is a lot more successful at getting its dictates enshrined into American law than Islam will ever be.

You quote me out of context. If you had bothered to read my entire post you and understood it you would not have to bother to quote me out of context. I did not say that Islam is alone in certain aspects nor did I imply it.

Strangely, when I was rereading my post, that particular comment stood out and I wondered if someone would be daft enough to make it an issue without understanding the whole context of my post.

It does not matter of you can pick something out of my post and say "ah ha ! One could say something about people who interpert Christianity literally as being like that too".

Major Christian sects (not that I am defending them) do not interpret biblical scripture literally. All Muslim sects demand that the Quran be interpreted literally.

If you're worried about all the above, and you're focusing your ire on Islam and not people like, for instance, Mike Huckabee, then you're complaining about a cat scratch while a bear is biting your arm off.

You quote me out of context. If you had read and understood my entire post instead of wanting to cut my post into sound bytes because you do not like what I have, then you proove my comments that you are attacking something because you are obcessed with doing so because you think it is the "right thing" to do rather than it is logically correct.

Comparing Islam to Christianity is comparing apples to postits. Since no major christian sect demands that the bible be interpreted literally it does not compare to Islam.

And going off base and referring to a differenent discussion thread is Ad Homenem and does not apply to this debate, if that is what you are doing.

No they don't. Child marriages are a miniscule minority of marriages among Muslims worldwide.

I think you are wrong. Show me the stats. It happens in countries with tens of millions of peple. It is defended as law in Saudi Arabia and Iran.

Your confirming that it happens and even a defender of Islam admits it only worsens my opinion. Even if it is a minority it is a big problem among a billion people.

You're not off to a very good start regarding your knowledge of Islam. Allah didn't dictate to Muhammad directly, but though the angel Gabriel. The prayers are those of Gabriel to Allah, not Allah to himself.

That is a myth. The truth is that the Quran was written in bits and parts when Muhammed would go into a trance and his supporters often would grab whatever they could find to jot down what he had to say.

The whole angel bit was contrived long after the fact. So were many things like his soul visiting Palestine before it flew into the sky on a donkey.

If you read the Quran, you would see how silly your theory is. It does not read as a prayer from an angel either.

Islamism is not the same as Islam. And, again, if you're worried about the religious threat to evolution education in the West, focusing on Islam rather than Christianity is missing the forest for the forest fire.

What are you talking about here? Elaborate. You are talking about a handful of biblcal fundamentalist and that is a bigger issue than Islam to you?

Are you saying that Muslims embrace Evolution? You must be joking.

And is your point of view basically this: "Christianity is bad so Islam is OK"?

 

[bookitty]

You quote me out of context. If you had bothered to read my entire post you and understood it you would not have to bother to quote me out of context. I did not say that Islam is alone in certain aspects nor did I imply it.

Strangely, when I was rereading my post, that particular comment stood out and I wondered if someone would be daft enough to make it an issue without understanding the whole context of my post.

It does not matter of you can pick something out of my post and say "ah ha ! One could say something about people who interpert Christianity literally as being like that too".

Major Christian sects (not that I am defending them) do not interpret biblical scripture literally. All Muslim sects demand that the Quran be interpreted literally.


You quote me out of context. If you had read and understood my entire post instead of wanting to cut my post into sound bytes because you do not like what I have, then you proove my comments that you are attacking something because you are obcessed with doing so because you think it is the "right thing" to do rather than it is logically correct.

Comparing Islam to Christianity is comparing apples to postits. Since no major christian sect demands that the bible be interpreted literally it does not compare to Islam.

And going off base and referring to a differenent discussion thread is Ad Homenem and does not apply to this debate, if that is what you are doing.


I think you are wrong. Show me the stats. It happens in countries with tens of millions of peple. It is defended as law in Saudi Arabia and Iran.

Your confirming that it happens and even a defender of Islam admits it only worsens my opinion. Even if it is a minority it is a big problem among a billion people.

That is a myth. The truth is that the Quran was written in bits and parts when Muhammed would go into a trance and his supporters often would grab whatever they could find to jot down what he had to say.

The whole angel bit was contrived long after the fact. So were many things like his soul visiting Palestine before it flew into the sky on a donkey.

If you read the Quran, you would see how silly your theory is. It does not read as a prayer from an angel either.


What are you talking about here? Elaborate. You are talking about a handful of biblcal fundamentalist and that is a bigger issue than Islam to you?

And is your point of view basically this: "Christianity is bad so Islam is OK?"

If major Christian sects do not interpret the Bible literally then why are we fighting creationism in public schools?

This isn't to say that Christianity/Islam is good or bad - only that the views of a specific sect of extremists does not fairly represent the views of all followers of that faith.

 

[Trakar]

If major Christian sects do not interpret the Bible literally then why are we fighting creationism in public schools?

This isn't to say that Christianity/Islam is good or bad - only that the views of a specific sect of extremists does not fairly represent the views of all followers of that faith.

And more importantly to this thread's topic,...debate over any religion's precepts and beliefs is irrelevent to whether or not it is appropriate to heckle and harass families and individuals who gather for a fund-raising event supporting a legitimate and cross culturally recognized worthy cause.

 

[Cleon]

And more importantly to this thread's topic,...debate over any religion's precepts and beliefs is irrelevent to whether or not it is appropriate to heckle and harass families and individuals who gather for a fund-raising event supporting a legitimate and cross culturally recognized worthy cause.

I just felt that needed to be said louder.

 

[A'isha]

It does not matter of you can pick something out of my post and say "ah ha ! One could say something about people who interpert Christianity literally as being like that too".

When you list characteristics 100% in common between Christianity and Islam, and then focus solely on Islam as the threat that needs to be eradicated based on those characteristics (and ignoring the more immediate threat that Christianity poses because it has those characteristics too), then yes, it does matter.

Major Christian sects (not that I am defending them) do not interpret biblical scripture literally.

A quick visit to the location listed on every one of my posts will very quickly disabuse you of that notion.

All Muslim sects demand that the Quran be interpreted literally.

Never heard of ta'wil, I see. Or any of the many Sufi orders.

For starters.

You quote me out of context. If you had read and understood my entire post instead of wanting to cut my post into sound bytes because you do not like what I have, then you proove my comments that you are attacking something because you are obcessed with doing so because you think it is the "right thing" to do rather than it is logically correct.

You have those backwards. I'm saying what I'm saying because my position is the one that's logically correct, whereas yours is based on pure emotion (and, if your descriptions of both Islam and Christianity are anything to go by, utter fictions as well).

Comparing Islam to Christianity is comparing apples to postits. Since no major christian sect demands that the bible be interpreted literally it does not compare to Islam.

Again, where do you get this idea that "no major christian sect demands that the bible be interpreted literally"?

That's so wrong it's actually making me reread your words to make sure I'm not hallucinating them.

I think you are wrong. Show me the stats. It happens in countries with tens of millions of peple. It is defended as law in Saudi Arabia and Iran.

According to the International Center for Research on Women, West Africa, Central/South Asia (which is mainly India), East/Central Africa, the Carribean, and freaking Latin America all have a higher percentage of child marriages than the Middle East (ranking from highest to lowest).

Even in the Middle East, the problem varies. Jordan, for instance, has a child marriage rate only slightly higher than that of the United States (and less than half of the rate in the decidedly-not-Muslim country of Nicararagua).

Your confirming that it happens and even a defender of Islam admits it only worsens my opinion. Even if it is a minority it is a big problem among a billion people.

No, it's a big problem worldwide, and as the ICRW says (and their statistics confirm) "No one religious affiliation was associated with child marriage, according to a 2007 ICRW study. Rather, a variety of religions are associated with child marriage in countries throughout the world."

That is a myth. The truth is that the Quran was written in bits and parts when Muhammed would go into a trance and his supporters often would grab whatever they could find to jot down what he had to say.

The whole angel bit was contrived long after the fact. So were many things like his soul visiting Palestine before it flew into the sky on a donkey.

That wasn't your criticism, though.

If you read the Quran, you would see how silly your theory is. It does not read as a prayer from an angel either.

I didn't say I believed it. I said your attack on the "validity" of the Qu'ran (by mockingly asking how it could have been the word of Allah if it contains prayers to Allah) was a total nonsequitur because that's not what Islam says.

What you did was the equivalent of claiming to know about Christianity and challenging believing Christians to debate the validity of those beliefs, and confidently stating you'd totally demolish them because the idea of John the Baptist being born of a virgin and crucified for our sins is dumb.

Anyone who knows anything about the topic would just stare at you and shake their heads slowly.

What are you talking about here? Elaborate. You are talking about a handful of biblcal fundamentalist and that is a bigger issue than Islam to you?

There are a lot more than a "handful" of them. And they've been far more successful at incorporating their religious laws in the laws of the United States than Muslims have been (or, indeed, ever will be).

And is your point of view basically this: "Christianity is bad so Islam is OK"?

No, my point of view is that, right now, in 2011, the place I live in has laws in place explicitly based on Christianity, with the promise of a lot more to come. In contrast, there's not a single sharia-based law even in the planning stages.

Christianity is more of an immediate threat, and in fact is winning over secularism where I live. So why should I not worry about Christianity more than I worry about Islam?

 

[Bill Thompson]

If major Christian sects do not interpret the Bible literally then why are we fighting creationism in public schools?

Because the people fighting evolution are not supported by any major Christian sects.

This "creationism" was invented and is supported by the lunatic fringe of biblcial fundamentalists. The Catholics are not officially against evolution. In fact The Pope (John Paul II) had a nice comment about evolution once. The Baptitsts are not officially against evolution either. Nor the Methodists. The Mormons? Humm, I would not call them Christian exactly althought they would insist that they are.

Yet I get anti-evolution rubbish from high and respected levels of Islam.

 

[bookitty]

And more importantly to this thread's topic,...debate over any religion's precepts and beliefs is irrelevent to whether or not it is appropriate to heckle and harass families and individuals who gather for a fund-raising event supporting a legitimate and cross culturally recognized worthy cause.

Cleon beat me to it but really, this is all that needs to be said on the matter.

 

[Bill Thompson]

When you list characteristics 100% in common between Christianity and Islam, and then focus solely on Islam as the threat that needs to be eradicated based on those characteristics (and ignoring the more immediate threat that Christianity poses because it has those characteristics too), then yes, it does matter.

I never did that, nor did I imply that. If you can not or will not comprehend what I wrote, what is the point of my constantly correcting you?

 

[AlBell]

And more importantly to this thread's topic,...debate over any religion's precepts and beliefs is irrelevent to whether or not it is appropriate to heckle and harass families and individuals who gather for a fund-raising event supporting a legitimate and cross culturally recognized worthy cause.

Ya think?

Where shall we gather to sing Kum-bay-ah? And will the lions & lambs also be happy together?

 

[Bill Thompson]

A quick visit to the location listed on every one of my posts will very quickly disabuse you of that notion.

People who call themselves Mormon still practice multiple marrages but the LDS church has abandoned it.

Just because there are some people who call themselves Christian who are creationists does not mean major christian sects officially are against evolution.

All major sects of Christianity do not have a problem with evolution.

The Westburo Baptist Church does not count and is not officially connected with Southern Baptists.

You are somehow running on emotion and want to pick apart my posts rather than reading them and understanding what I have to say. That is pretty sad and says alot to me about defenders of Islam.

 

[Bill Thompson]

Again, where do you get this idea that "no major christian sect demands that the bible be interpreted literally"?

I have read it many times from their official documentation.

 

[Dancing David]

And more importantly to this thread's topic,...debate over any religion's precepts and beliefs is irrelevent to whether or not it is appropriate to heckle and harass families and individuals who gather for a fund-raising event supporting a legitimate and cross culturally recognized worthy cause.

Yay

 

[Bill Thompson]

According to the International Center for Research on Women, West Africa, Central/South Asia (which is mainly India), East/Central Africa, the Carribean, and freaking Latin America all have a higher percentage of child marriages than the Middle East (ranking from highest to lowest).

And so what does that mean? What is your point? How many of these countries in West Africa are Muslim? How many of those areas in India are because of the influence of Islam? How many of those area in South Asia are Muslim?

 

[Bill Thompson]

Here is an example of how, if you do not like what I have to say, you break it apart in sound bytes and take things out of context to make it seem like I am saying something I am not. It is as if the quest for truth does not matter as much as some sort of battle where your fantasy wins.

That is a myth. The truth is that the Quran was written in bits and parts when Muhammed would go into a trance and his supporters often would grab whatever they could find to jot down what he had to say.

The whole angel bit was contrived long after the fact. So were many things like his soul visiting Palestine before it flew into the sky on a donkey.

That wasn't your criticism, though.

You sliced a complete thought into two pieces. You did this to make it easier for you to belittle and attack what I have to say. You cut into my comment before it was done as if to imply that I was changing the subject. I was not. I was giving an example.

If you read the Quran, you would see how silly your theory is. It does not read as a prayer from an angel either.

I didn't say I believed it. I said your attack on the "validity" of the Qu'ran (by mockingly asking how it could have been the word of Allah if it contains prayers to Allah) was a total nonsequitur because that's not what Islam says.

But that IS what Islam says.


You are doing several things over and over

• You are taking my comments out of context.
• You are demonstrating that you have not read the quran and you do not really understand Islam and yet you are somehow defending it.
• You are taking my comments as sound bytes without bothering to read and/understand my point.

Islam DOES insist that the Quran is the word of God. The prayer at the beginning of the Quran is NOT the prayer of an angel.
I have had this discussion with Muslims and they have never used the angel excuse before.