Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[tronic]

Draca, tronic is either trying to make a joke or, more likely, hasn't followed the case and is unaware that that conversation (in which Amanda refers to being at Raffaele's house, not her own) is old news.
lxxx

Only recently has a transcript of the conversation containing the Knox remark appeared. This is new material. I am not making a joke. What would be the point of making a "joke". You are trying to distract from this because the release of the context of the Knox remark is hugely damaging for her case.

 

[tronic]

But also, she is very worried about the knife. Why not simply say the knife has to be a joke or something. Why validate it as she did.

In so many places AK and Sollecito mirror each other. Sollecitos' reaction confirmed his involvement upon hearing that Guede had been picked up: "Papa is relieved but I am afraid he may invent strange things" ... why would he be worried when his lawyer at the time (Bongiorno) stated: "We will show that Raffaele did not know Rudy Guede, and that the first time he saw him was in court.".

 

[RoseMontague]

In so many places AK and Sollecito mirror each other. Sollecitos' reaction confirmed his involvement upon hearing that Guede had been picked up: "Papa is relieved but I am afraid he may invent strange things" ... why would he be worried when his lawyer at the time (Bongiorno) stated: "We will show that Raffaele did not know Rudy Guede, and that the first time he saw him was in court.".

Raffaele did not know Rudy and I don't see anyone saying that he did. And Rudy did later change his story and invented strange things. So I see that they are both telling the truth. I am not sure how this makes them guilty.

 

[Justinian2]

It is irrelevant whether or not she was at the cottage unless she was there at the Tod! (About 9 PM). There is no evidence to suggest that Amanda was there within twelve hours of the Tod. (MK was alive before 9 PM). Her phone conversation does not suggest that either.

 

[tronic]

Is tronic saying that the prosecution is withholding even more evidence? In the civilized world this alone is sufficient grounds for declaring a mistrial and subjecting the prosecutor to prosecution.

I am talking about evidence that becomes public knowledge -- yes you are right. I was wrong in assuming the prosecution "witholds evidence". I don't know anything about law. But it is a fact that more and more evidence is becoming public knowledge. I believe some members of this forum (favoring the release of Knox) have access to the case files but are staying schtum.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

another interpretation, based on her previous confusion

You're overlooking the fact that her parents were perfectly aware that she had been staying at Raffaele after being locked out of the cottage.

Katody,

Maybe Amanda meant that she could not tell the police that she was at her flat, when she now believed that she was with Raffaele. She was very confused only days before the conversation with Edda took place. She may have felt implicit or explicit pressure from the police* to say that she was at her flat, which would now be a lie, because she now believed otherwise.

s_pepys,

I am under the impression (from comments at PMF as well as in Murder in Italy), that Judge Micheli interpreted Amanda's words to mean that she was with Raffaele at his apartment. Whether this constitutes an "official" interpretation or not is an interesting question.

*during the period after her arrest

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Raffaele did not know Rudy and I don't see anyone saying that he did. And Rudy did later change his story and invented strange things. So I see that they are both telling the truth. I am not sure how this makes them guilty.

For the sake of discussion, if Raffaele did not know Guede and the quote is accurate

"Papa is relieved but I am afraid he may invent strange things"

. How could he predict or be “afraid” that someone he didn’t know would invent strange things?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

English versus a translation

Only recently has a transcript of the conversation containing the Knox remark appeared. This is new material. I am not making a joke. What would be the point of making a "joke". You are trying to distract from this because the release of the context of the Knox remark is hugely damaging for her case.

tronic,

Amanda was conversing with Edda in English, and the transcript is in Italian, IIUC. Are these the same translators who missed the "good night" in Ms. Knox's text message to Patrick? Even if not, I would still rather see the words in English or hear the audio tape than have a translation.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

lying to evade responsibility

For the sake of discussion, if Raffaele did not know Guede and the quote is accurate . How could he predict or be “afraid” that someone he didn’t know would invent strange things?

CoulsdonUK,

If I were incarcerated, and someone else fell under suspicion, I would expect that person to attempt to lie his or her way out of responsibility. Would you not?

 

[Katody Matrass]

Only recently has a transcript of the conversation containing the Knox remark appeared. This is new material. I am not making a joke. What would be the point of making a "joke". You are trying to distract from this because the release of the context of the Knox remark is hugely damaging for her case.

tronic, did you take a look at the link Dan O. posted?

What you're so excited about have been posted by Fank Sfarzo more then 2 years ago.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

CoulsdonUK,

If I were incarcerated, and someone else fell under suspicion, I would expect that person to attempt to lie his or her way out of responsibility. Would you not?

A valid point, I guess for me though the statement would make sense if it were made after Guede and said strange things (made a statement accusing Raffaele of involvement), instead Raffaele appears to be fearful of what might be said .

 

[Katody Matrass]

But also, she is very worried about the knife. Why not simply say the knife has to be a joke or something. Why validate it as she did.

For the sake of discussion, if Raffaele did not know Guede and the quote is accurate . How could he predict or be “afraid” that someone he didn’t know would invent strange things?

Danceme, CoulsdonUK what you're trying to argue here is really against common sense. Imagine you're in jail for the crime you have nothing to do with. You wouldn't be worried at all that police conjures evidence against you out of thin air or that the real culprit will try to blame you when caught?

 

[Katody Matrass]

Katody,

Maybe Amanda meant that she could not tell the police that she was at her flat, when she now believed that she was with Raffaele. She was very confused only days before the conversation with Edda took place. She may have felt implicit or explicit pressure from the police* to say that she was at her flat, which would now be a lie, because she now believed otherwise.

Exactly, the police told her "you're a stupid liar, we have hard evidence you were not at Raffaele, don't lie to us."

What Amanda says after shaking off the shock and confusion they put her in?
"It’s stupid. I can’t say anything but the truth, because I know I was there."

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Danceme, CoulsdonUK what you're trying to argue here is really against common sense. Imagine you're in jail for the crime you have nothing to do with. You wouldn't be worried at all that police conjures evidence against you out of thin air or that the real culprit will try to blame you when caught?

Well that isn’t what the quote states; simply he is expressing fear that Guede will say strange things no mention of the police. It’s not really a question of what I imagine the police may or may not do but what the quote states.

 

[Katody Matrass]

Well that isn’t what the quote states; simply he is expressing fear that Guede will say strange things no mention of the police. It’s not really a question of what I imagine the police may or may not do but what the quote states.

That's not exactly what I wrote. I meant it's common sense to worry that the real culprit will try to put blame on you, when you're already in jail.

 

[snook1]

Exactly, the police told her "you're a stupid liar, we have hard evidence you were not at Raffaele, don't lie to us."

What Amanda says after shaking off the shock and confusion they put her in?
"It’s stupid. I can’t say anything but the truth, because I know I was there."

I think you've hit the nail here.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

That's not exactly what I wrote. I meant it's common sense to worry that the real culprit will try to put blame on you, when you're already in jail.

I guess you will conclude that I would say this. However, if I were innocent and someone else was arrested my overall emotion would be one of relief as I would be released soon. Raffaele’s statement did not express relief but a fear or concern that Guede would “say strange things”.

Now in the context of being fearful of the police conjuring up evidence out of thin air, one could argue that of all those arrested in connection to Meredith’s murder that the African immigrants as an ethnic group in Italy would probably be more fearful of the police in the way that you suggest than a middle class Italian born University student.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

the police told Raffale things that were not true

I guess you will conclude that I would say this. However, if I were innocent and someone else was arrested my overall emotion would be one of relief as I would be released soon. Raffaele’s statement did not express relief but a fear or concern that Guede would “say strange things”.

CoulsdonUK,

It is not clear to me when Raffaele first became aware that the police were telling him things that were not true (there was some business about Amanda's being seen in a laundry, among other things, but the details escape me; his diary might be helpful in this regard). If he were aware that the police were mistaken (or lying) by the time Rudi had been apprehended, then he had good reason to be fearful, apart from any impressions he formed about ILE from his interrogation. MOO.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

CoulsdonUK,

It is not clear to me when Raffaele first became aware that the police were telling him things that were not true (there was some business about Amanda's being seen in a laundry, among other things, but the details escape me; his diary might be helpful in this regard). If he were aware that the police were mistaken (or lying) by the time Rudi had been apprehended, then he had good reason to be fearful, apart from any impressions he formed about ILE from his interrogation. MOO.

I guess you will conclude that I would say this. However, if I were innocent and someone else was arrested my overall emotion would be one of relief as I would be released soon. Raffaele’s statement did not express relief but a fear or concern that Guede would “say strange things”.

Now in the context of being fearful of the police conjuring up evidence out of thin air, one could argue that of all those arrested in connection to Meredith’s murder that the African immigrants as an ethnic group in Italy would probably be more fearful of the police in the way that you suggest than a middle class Italian born university student.

I assume that all those arrested were all told various things by the police it’s hardly unique to Raffaele nor a particularly unusual police tactic with alleged multiple assailants, play one against the other.

I thought the quote was from Raffaele prison diary, although like you I am not sure. For clarity I have included a full quote of my previous post as I believe the second paragraph is relevant.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

warmed over bologna

I assume that all those arrested were all told various things by the police it’s hardly unique to Raffaele nor a particularly unusual police tactic with alleged multiple assailants, play one against the other.

I thought the quote was from Raffaele prison diary, although like you I am not sure. For clarity I have included a full quote of my previous post as I believe the second paragraph is relevant.

CoulsdonUK,

From the 11 November entry of Raffale’s diary (Belle Translation):
“Instead I had information that on the morning of Friday, when I was sleeping and Amanda went to take a shower at her home, she had gone also with an Argentinian guy ... I suppose, in a laundry and that this here wedged in the washing
machine the clothes including the blue Nike shoes ...”

The story about Amanda and the laundry is a bunch of warmed over bologna. I don’t know when Raffaele learned the truth, but once he did, he is well within the bounds of good sense never to trust the police again, even if it is standard operating procedure with multiple suspects. MOO.