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Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Helmand is a province in Afghanistan :)

The judge's name is Hellmann (or Claudio Pratillo Hellmann in full) - although it's amazing how many people (including media outlets) refer to him as "Hellman". Heck, even the mayonnaise is spelt "Hellmann's"!
Yea I am known for my typo's although that is an intersting one. :p
 
That's interesting points you’ve raised. However, can we agree we are both in the realms of speculation and the only way to prove either position is the outcome of the appeal?

How does an appeal to athority prove anything?

The argument is whether Amanda and Raffaele are guilty, not whether they will be found guilty.

Being found guilty doesn't have anything to do with logic if the people involved aren't logical.

There are a lot of illogical decisions. The Dredd Scott case was one. The SC, in that decision, found that slaves were property and did not have the rights of citizens.

The scary thing is that courts don't have to be right.
 
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No I am referring to the fact that we require more from the appeal.

Look I believe the ruling on Guede's appeal is significant. However, that could be nullified if for example the DNA of the bra clasp and knife is thrown out, equally if either is accepted then it would be depend on how Hellmand rules on other evidence or witnesses etc.

As others have pointed out you seem to be coming at the Guede SC ruling from a UK judicial system perspective. The UK (and US and most English speaking countries for that matter) judicial sytem is grounded in common law. One of the key facets of that system of justice is the importance of precedence and that court rulings do effectively make / revise the law. In the common law system lower courts under the jurisdiction of higher courts are bound to follow the rulings of these higher courts where such rulings have application to cases being heard before the lower court.

However, Italy (and most of the rest of the non-English / non-Islamic) world uses a civil law system based on the twin pillars of Roman law and the Napoleonic Code. In this system, Judges have much greater latitude and are not bound oftentimes by rulings by other higher courts. The fiasco regarding the 1:45 AM statement by AK that the Italian Supreme Court ruled could not be admited as evidence, but was allowed in anyway during the first trial as part of the parallel civil proceeding is a classic example of this principle.

A review of the Wikipedia articles for civil and common law systems might further clarify these distinctions for you.

My misunderstanding of the civil law system led me down many a wrong path as I tried to understand this case. It was treehorn, of all people, who's constant emphasis that common law ideas concepts often don't apply in civil law jurisdictions forced me to educate myself.
 
A glance through the last couple of pages of posts gives the impression that once again there are some people espousing (or at least suggesting) the utterly ludicrous idea that the rulings in the Guede case could somehow be considered binding precedent for the courts considering the case against Knox and Sollecito. Anyone who thinks this evinces a total misunderstanding not only of the legal system (of Italy or any other civilized nation) but of all common-sense notions of fairness.

This furthermore has nothing to do with the esoteric distinction between the "common law" and "civil law" systems. The principle of stare decisis familiar to those in common-law countries has to do with the interpretation of law by courts; it is never applied to the facts of an individual criminal case! A criminal jury in the United States, for example, is never bound to adhere to the findings of another such jury; each case is supposed to be decided on its own, where lawyers can present a defense; that's an integral part of what "fair trial" means!

Just think about what you're implying if you suggest that the fact that the Cassazione endorsed the conspiracy theory somehow precludes Knox and Sollecito from arguing for a lone wolf theory in their appeal: you're saying that you think the Italian system allows rulings to be handed down against defendants without their having the chance to argue their case! Knox and Sollecito's lawyers weren't at Guede's appeal hearings arguing against the conspiracy theory. In fact, no one there was; there was nobody in those proceedings whose interest it was to do so! Because the prosecutors of Guede presented the conspiracy theory, and his defense certainly wasn't going to argue that he was the lone killer (!), there was no reason for the judges to consider a lone wolf theory at all -- nobody was arguing for it! The presence of culprits other than Guede was effectively stipulated by all parties in that case.

I'm not an expert on Italian law, but frankly you don't need to be for something as elementary as this. The notion that the decision in the Guede case in any way binds the Hellmann court to adhere to any particular interpretation of the facts can be rejected at once, simply on the premise that Italy has something remotely resembling a fair system. For all relevant legal purposes, Guede and Knox/Sollecito are separate cases, period.

Now, if you want to argue that, psychologically, the judges and jurors in the current appeal may be prejudiced because of the Guede ruling, that's a different story, and may or may not be true. I highly doubt they're legally allowed to be (see above!), and in any event it wouldn't speak very highly of them if they were; but my faith in people's fairness did not survive the verdict of the Massei court.
 
This photo shows more glass on the mat next to Filomena's bed than I remember being easily visible in other pictures.
 
A glance through the last couple of pages of posts gives the impression that once again there are some people espousing (or at least suggesting) the utterly ludicrous idea that the rulings in the Guede case could somehow be considered binding precedent for the courts considering the case against Knox and Sollecito. Anyone who thinks this evinces a total misunderstanding not only of the legal system (of Italy or any other civilized nation) but of all common-sense notions of fairness.

This furthermore has nothing to do with the esoteric distinction between the "common law" and "civil law" systems. The principle of stare decisis familiar to those in common-law countries has to do with the interpretation of law by courts; it is never applied to the facts of an individual criminal case! A criminal jury in the United States, for example, is never bound to adhere to the findings of another such jury; each case is supposed to be decided on its own, where lawyers can present a defense; that's an integral part of what "fair trial" means!

Just think about what you're implying if you suggest that the fact that the Cassazione endorsed the conspiracy theory somehow precludes Knox and Sollecito from arguing for a lone wolf theory in their appeal: you're saying that you think the Italian system allows rulings to be handed down against defendants without their having the chance to argue their case! Knox and Sollecito's lawyers weren't at Guede's appeal hearings arguing against the conspiracy theory. In fact, no one there was; there was nobody in those proceedings whose interest it was to do so! Because the prosecutors of Guede presented the conspiracy theory, and his defense certainly wasn't going to argue that he was the lone killer (!), there was no reason for the judges to consider a lone wolf theory at all -- nobody was arguing for it! The presence of culprits other than Guede was effectively stipulated by all parties in that case.

I'm not an expert on Italian law, but frankly you don't need to be for something as elementary as this. The notion that the decision in the Guede case in any way binds the Hellmann court to adhere to any particular interpretation of the facts can be rejected at once, simply on the premise that Italy has something remotely resembling a fair system. For all relevant legal purposes, Guede and Knox/Sollecito are separate cases, period.

Now, if you want to argue that, psychologically, the judges and jurors in the current appeal may be prejudiced because of the Guede ruling, that's a different story, and may or may not be true. I highly doubt they're legally allowed to be (see above!), and in any event it wouldn't speak very highly of them if they were; but my faith in people's fairness did not survive the verdict of the Massei court.
Are you stating for example the evidence that is now been made available from Guede’s trial, first and final appeal cannot be used by the prosecution to argue against the lone wolf theory in Amanda and Raffaele appeal? Equally, there might be information that the defence my wish to use. I am not debating how the appeal judge may rule, merely the fact that the evidence including the findings of the Supreme Court are now available to defence and prosecution teams and this in itself is a new dynamic.
 
Are you stating for example the evidence that is now been made available from Guede’s trial, first and final appeal cannot be used by the prosecution to argue against the lone wolf theory in Amanda and Raffaele appeal?


That's exactly what he said. And what Onofara said. And what LondonJohn said. And what I said. Are you ever going to try to back your position with your own evidence or will you continue to blindly repeat the same statements over and over and over??
 
That's exactly what he said. And what Onofara said. And what LondonJohn said. And what I said. Are you ever going to try to back your position with your own evidence or will you continue to blindly repeat the same statements over and over and over??
I guess it is possible that I may have missed the post that provides independent evidence that the prosecution and defence are not permitted to use what is now public information from Guede trial, firat and final appeal as evidence in Amanda and Raffaele appeal. Please provide the post # or any independent news media source.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/dec/18/amanda-knox-dna-appeal

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/setback-for-knox-appeal-2226091.html

A quote from the article
Knox's prospects were clouded by the court's decision to incorporate into the appeal all documents, evidence and findings from the murder trial of Rudy Guede, who chose a fast-track trial and was definitively sentenced to 16 years on Thursday for his part in the murder following the two appeals he was allowed under Italian law.

By upholding Guede's sentence, the appeal court also gave credence to the arguments made for his guilt at his first appeal, which clearly placed Knox and Sollecito at the scene of the crime with Guede. Mignani, the magistrate who secured the conviction of Knox, warned that the Guede conviction could doom Knox's appeal.

Now can you provide an independent source that counters the above information?
 
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Now can you provide an independent source that counters the above information?


You site as evidence an article by some cheesy columnist after we've referenced encyclopedia articles on the structure of the Italian legal system. Are you joking?
 
You site as evidence an article by some cheesy columnist after we've referenced encyclopedia articles on the structure of the Italian legal system. Are you joking?
The issue isn’t my sense of humour or indeed your acceptance or rejection of my sources; it is for me at least whether you can provide independent sources to support your statement.
 
Is the root source for this claim actually just that Mignini says so? :dl:
Are you actually able to provide independent sources that support your particular opinion that evidence from Guede’s trial, first and final appeal cannot not be entered into as evidence in Amanda and Raffaele appeal and as such used by the prosecution or defence?
 
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Are you actually able to provide independent sources that support your particular opinion that evidence from Guede’s trial, first and final cannot not be entered into as evidence in Amanda and Raffaele appeal and as such used by the prosecution or defence?


Do you realize how stupid that sounds: "Once evidence is submitted to one trial it can never be submitted to any other trial."

I think you are deliberately mixing terms. Is this because you know you don't have a case or are you honestly confused.
 
Is the root source for this claim actually just that Mignini says so? :dl:

That link appears to be broken.

I am curious about the Guardian article quoted by CoulsdonUK: "Knox's prospects were clouded by the court's decision to incorporate into the appeal all documents, evidence and findings from the murder trial of Rudy Guede,..."

Is that really true, or is the author of the article just making that up?
 
That link appears to be broken.

Thanks, I fixed it. It's actually the same link.


I am curious about the Guardian article quoted by CoulsdonUK: "Knox's prospects were clouded by the court's decision to incorporate into the appeal all documents, evidence and findings from the murder trial of Rudy Guede,..."

Is that really true, or is the author of the article just making that up?


Of course, the fact that Rudy's defense team argued vehemently that Rudy was a lone wolf assailant and not part of the conspiracy that the prosecution was presenting adds significant weight to the courts findings. It's unfortunate that all documentation and witnesses to that part of Rudy's trial were lost in the fire.
 
Can anyone provide an independent source that supports the view that evidence from Guede trial, first and final appeal cannot be used as evidence in Raffaele and Amanda’s appeal by the defence or prosecution.
 
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As a casual observer and contributor to this thread, I must say how impressed I am with CoulsdonUK's patience.

CousldonUK provides a quote from a respectable journalist writing in a serious newspaper and asks if anyone can "provide an independent source that supports the view that evidence from Guede trial, first and final appeal cannot be used as evidence"

Sounds reasonable to me.

A reasonable response would be to provide that source or remain silent. A simple "yes" or "no" Why is it that people instead choose to insult the journalist or to mock the poster?

Whether you agree with CoulsdonUK or not, surely you should respect the fact that this is a lone voice that puts forward an opposing view in a sound respectful way, long after others have grown tired of the direction that this thread has ta`ken.
 
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ALT + F4
Please wright the reasons why you find that AK and RS are guilty of this crime.
Lets take out the hobo.
lets take out the bloodyfoot prints.
Lets take out the confestion made on the 5th of november.
Lets take out the DNA that was to low low to read.
Lets take out that AK and RS was jailed for a year.
Please explain why you think these two people are guilty
O a big O I forgot please take out the judge C Mignini report
Or do i need to send too you the rubbish you and your tea baggers have sent over the internet the last free years.
Let me tell you in laymans words, its Simple, there is nothing in the room that Amanda or Raffaele was there .
And please do not bring the bra starp into the case, any court of law would send that to the rubbish bin, after being on the floor four ,45 days, and doing walkies.
And the magical knife that was found in RS flat, with Meredith DNA on the tip of said knife but to low to get a reading.
And also Amanda being question about her sexual boyfrends and that being release to the press.
Is there anything I mist out.
Please tell me.
PS I am very bad at spelling but I can read and try to wright, but I can do maths, but I am not a dumbo
 
Can anyone provide an independent source that supports the view that evidence from Guede trial, first and final appeal cannot be used as evidence in Raffaele and Amanda’s appeal by the defence or prosecution.

I seem to remember that either it was at the December 18, 2010 hearing or the January 22, 2011 hearing (maybe both) that it was requested by the prosecution to include all evidence from the Guede case file to the current appeal trial. I believe the request was granted by Hellmann.

Frank from Perugia-Shock mentions this request of the prosecution in his post of December 18, 2010.

http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2010/12/dna-study-admitted-for-knox-and.html

I will see if there is mention of this request by the prosecution in the Italian media. I believe there was but cannot remember where.

What impact this will or will not have on the current appeal I cannot say, other than I believe the defense in their appeal are not wedded to the lone wolf theory of the murder. And I do not think the appeal court is bound by the decision of the high court.

To another subject - PMF has acquired the Guede Motivations. I am perusing the report. It is interesting but I have not found the part yet where the November 17 "I was there" intercepted call is written.
 
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