Protests in Wisconsin - Scott Walker

This story has been blown way out of proportion.

There are the big investor-owned utilities, like WE Energies in my area.
Then, many cities across the state own their own electric generation plants.
None of these are affected.

ht tp://w ww.nbc15.com/state/headlines/Walkers_Budget_Allows_Power_Plant_Sale_116223309.html

The bill refers to state owned plants that provide power directly to such places as the Capitol Building, UW-Madison campus, etc.
The desire is to strike a deal where the buyer agrees to sell power to the state at a reduced price. The state gets cash from the sale, and does not have to budget for future maintenance costs.

So, if Koch Industries master plan is to control Wisconsin's electricity supply and rape us all for billions in profits, this bill won't get it done.
Your link (for convenience): http://www.nbc15.com/state/headlines/Walkers_Budget_Allows_Power_Plant_Sale_116223309.html

The plants the state owns:
It's unclear what the market value of the plants would be. The Legislative Fiscal Bureau analyzed a similar proposal in 2005 and estimated the value of the 34 plants at $235.9 million, offset by $83.9 million in debt.
So we are talking about 34 plants.

If only selling the plants was the issue, why no-bid and sole control of the sale vested in the administrative branch?


Daily Kos has an interesting take on Walker's plans:
So in short:

1) Koch Brothers get their puppet Governor Walker in power
2) Governor Walker gins up a crisis
3) Democrats and Progressives take the bait and counter-protest on collective bargaining
4) Governor Walker will compromise on collective bargaining if the rest of the budget is passed as is
5) Bill passes, with trojan horse give-a-way to the Koch Brothers nested in
6) Koch Brothers will buy Wisconsin state-owned power plants for pennies on the dollar in closed unsolicitated bids for which there will be no oversight
7) Koch Brothers get the best vertical monopoly in a generation
I don't agree. I think the fake Koch Walker conversation suggests Walker thinks killing unions will get him kudos from the crowd Walker fancies himself one of.


There were also some mixed opinion pieces on the motives regarding changing one of the plants to burning biomass instead of natural gas: expense of the startup vs the resulting WI jobs it would generate. So it is not clear if any of this is to get around the long term goal of changing energy sources vs the short term goal of avoiding the investment expenses.
 
So in short:

1) Koch Brothers get their puppet Governor Walker in power
2) Governor Walker gins up a crisis
3) Democrats and Progressives take the bait and counter-protest on collective bargaining
4) Governor Walker will compromise on collective bargaining if the rest of the budget is passed as is
5) Bill passes, with trojan horse give-a-way to the Koch Brothers nested in
6) Koch Brothers will buy Wisconsin state-owned power plants for pennies on the dollar in closed unsolicitated bids for which there will be no oversight
7) Koch Brothers get the best vertical monopoly in a generation

1. Where are the strings?
2. False.
3. True, I suppose. They are protesting.
4. Don't know.
5. Unsubstantiated speculation.
6. Unsubstantiated speculation.
7. Vertical integration is legal. The term vertical monopoly is used to make it sound illegal. The best in a generation? Really? This company, with annual revenues of $100 billion, grooms Scott Walker to be governor of Wisconsin, so they can steal the crown jewels of the state, power plants that will need some (possibly expensive) upgrades to meet EPA rules.
 
Bid contracts can have scoring systems that take into account price as well as other less quantitative considerations. They can definitely have minimum requirements that the contractor must prove.

The only time that the government should ever provide no bid contracts is when the there's only one possible bidder or when time is vastly more important than money.
The hilited part is a favorite way here of rigging the competitive bidding for contracts. You can word the requirements in such a way that political insiders are the only "qualified" bidders.
 
The hilited part is a favorite way here of rigging the competitive bidding for contracts. You can word the requirements in such a way that political insiders are the only "qualified" bidders.

Most of the school bids that I'm involved with have a scoring system that is not lowest-bidder wins. The rules are open to everyone prior to the bid so people can see it. There are multiple people who score the contract (and in our case, the Architect is one of them). And even in New Mexico, one of the most corrupt states in the Union, we manage to convict people on occasion for trying to rig it. ;)

It works, and there's good reasons to do it.
 
1. Where are the strings?
2. False.
3. True, I suppose. They are protesting.
4. Don't know.
5. Unsubstantiated speculation.
6. Unsubstantiated speculation.
7. Vertical integration is legal. The term vertical monopoly is used to make it sound illegal. The best in a generation? Really? This company, with annual revenues of $100 billion, grooms Scott Walker to be governor of Wisconsin, so they can steal the crown jewels of the state, power plants that will need some (possibly expensive) upgrades to meet EPA rules.
It easy to skim a post and miss a key point. Unfortunately I do it myself all too often.

I think you missed this part of my post:

"I don't agree [with the things in the Daily Kos list you took such care to rebut]. I think the fake Koch Walker conversation suggests Walker thinks killing unions will get him kudos from the crowd Walker fancies himself one of."
 
1. Where are the strings?

Campaign funding. Probably a job paying4-5X what he is worth when he is no longer governor.

2. False.

Indefensiblle position. They cut taxes and then cried about not having any money. Taxcuts for the fat class has failed to revive the ecconomy since the jelly-brain from California sold it to us in 1980.
3. True, I suppose. They are protesting.
And Walker is using it as an excuse to go totally Medevial on the unions.
4. Don't know.
Minimal compromise on his part might make him look less a thug.
5. Unsubstantiated speculation.
6. Unsubstantiated speculation.

Time will tell. Given historical precedent, this is more likely than that Walker really means well and is not doing a sweetheart deal with his masters.
7. Vertical integration is legal. The term vertical monopoly is used to make it sound illegal. The best in a generation? Really? This company, with annual revenues of $100 billion, grooms Scott Walker to be governor of Wisconsin, so they can steal the crown jewels of the state, power plants that will need some (possibly expensive) upgrades to meet EPA rules.

It's legal, unless a corrupt government official enables them to establish it to the detriment of the people.

If those plants are that expensive to upgrade, why would anyone want them at any price, let alone sell their product at a bargain rate?

That anyone wants them tells me that the state could upgrade them and turn a profit in the form of lower tax rates and better benfits. Something stinks to high heaven here.
 
It easy to skim a post and miss a key point. Unfortunately I do it myself all too often.

I think you missed this part of my post:

"I don't agree [with the things in the Daily Kos list you took such care to rebut]. I think the fake Koch Walker conversation suggests Walker thinks killing unions will get him kudos from the crowd Walker fancies himself one of."

I apologize, I misread your post and thought you were agreeing with the Daily Kos list.
I think we disagree on Walker's motivations. Unless one of us spontaneously develops the Vulcan Mind-Meld, it will be difficult to resolve that disagreement.
 
1. Where are the strings?
Campaign funding. Probably a job paying4-5X what he is worth when he is no longer governor.
Campaign donations = puppet strings. OK, how does that apply to the union / Democratic Party relationship?

2. False.
Indefensiblle position. They cut taxes and then cried about not having any money. Taxcuts for the fat class has failed to revive the ecconomy since the jelly-brain from California sold it to us in 1980.
Debunked in post 255. Here is the report if you want to read it.
Just out of curiosity, why do you throw non sequiturs about Reagan into your posts?

3. True, I suppose. They are protesting.
And Walker is using it as an excuse to go totally Medevial on the unions.
By Medieval you mean letting them turn the Capitol Building into a giant flophouse?

5. Unsubstantiated speculation.
6. Unsubstantiated speculation.
Time will tell. Given historical precedent, this is more likely than that Walker really means well and is not doing a sweetheart deal with his masters.
What specific precedent? And you have yet to prove the master/minion relationship.

7. Vertical integration is legal. The term vertical monopoly is used to make it sound illegal. The best in a generation? Really? This company, with annual revenues of $100 billion, grooms Scott Walker to be governor of Wisconsin, so they can steal the crown jewels of the state, power plants that will need some (possibly expensive) upgrades to meet EPA rules.
It's legal, unless a corrupt government official enables them to establish it to the detriment of the people.

If those plants are that expensive to upgrade, why would anyone want them at any price, let alone sell their product at a bargain rate?

That anyone wants them tells me that the state could upgrade them and turn a profit in the form of lower tax rates and better benfits. Something stinks to high heaven here.
Those plants don't turn a profit. They supply state buildings, prisons, and UW campuses. They're not selling to customers (although it's possible they might sell excess power to the grid, it would be a small fraction of the output). Say the state keeps them and pays for the upgrades, there is no revenue stream coming from that investment. Where does this profit come from?
 
I apologize, I misread your post and thought you were agreeing with the Daily Kos list.
I think we disagree on Walker's motivations. Unless one of us spontaneously develops the Vulcan Mind-Meld, it will be difficult to resolve that disagreement.
That, or you quit ignoring the obvious evidence in the Koch Walker phone conversation. ;)
 
Campaign donations = puppet strings. OK, how does that apply to the union / Democratic Party relationship?

Unions do not have the money to give crooks like Walker a cushy job at four times what they are worth. They can barely afford to compete with slime like Koch to pay for advertising for Democrats to combat the noise machine that corporate money can buy.


Debunked in post 255. Here is the report if you want to read it.

That is not conclusive proof that it was debunked.

Just out of curiosity, why do you throw non sequiturs about Reagan into your posts?

Because the senile old fart convinced people that it is okay to cut taxes for people and corporations that are doing us no good in a time of resession.

QUOTE]By Medieval you mean letting them turn the Capitol Building into a giant flophouse?[/QUOTE]

No. Threatening to call the Cossacks on them if they do not accept ecconomic serfdom.


What specific precedent?

California. ENRON. I should not have to go into much greater detail than that.

And you have yet to prove the master/minion relationship.

The GOP is becoming a wholly-owned subsidiary of corporate America. The oligarchs pay their money and expect the little monkeys like Walker to dance to their tune.

Those plants don't turn a profit. They supply state buildings, prisons, and UW campuses. They're not selling to customers (although it's possible they might sell excess power to the grid, it would be a small fraction of the output). Say the state keeps them and pays for the upgrades, there is no revenue stream coming from that investment. Where does this profit come from?

Then why on earth woud anybody want to buy them and make the up-grades and then sell the product to the state at less than it would cost the state to upgrade and maybe sell a little of the surplus to defray some of the costs?

It would make more sense to lease the plants, so that they could pull the plug on anyone who decides to go all ENRON with them.
 
Threatening to call the Cossacks on them if they do not accept ecconomic serfdom.

When did this actually happen again? I've seen this meme repeated but if there was ever a link I must have missed it. If you're talking about the national guard I was under the impression he mentioned calling them in to replace prison guards etc if they hypothetically went on strike.
 
Unions do not have the money to give crooks like Walker a cushy job at four times what they are worth. They can barely afford to compete with slime like Koch to pay for advertising for Democrats to combat the noise machine that corporate money can buy.

The unions aren't poor.
The American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees is now the biggest outside spender of the 2010 elections. The 1.6 million-member AFSCME is spending a total of $87.5 million on the elections.
The Wisconsin governor's salary was $137,092 in 2010. They can afford it.


That is not conclusive proof that it was debunked.
It is conclusive proof that you did not read the links.

California. ENRON. I should not have to go into much greater detail than that.
No, please do. I want to see the details.
There is no California - type deregulation scheme here.
And the plants under discussion are not part of the commercial & residential market.
 
When did this actually happen again? I've seen this meme repeated but if there was ever a link I must have missed it. If you're talking about the national guard I was under the impression he mentioned calling them in to replace prison guards etc if they hypothetically went on strike.
Walker has made an effort to evict protestors from the capitol in hopes of making them go away. One of the Repub legislators was on the news tonight literally calling the protestors "slobs".
 
Walker has made an effort to evict protestors from the capitol in hopes of making them go away. One of the Repub legislators was on the news tonight literally calling the protestors "slobs".


Can't imagine why...;)

(I'm sure it's glandular.)

vgo0nq.jpg
 
No, please do. I want to see the details.
There is no California - type deregulation scheme here.
And the plants under discussion are not part of the commercial & residential market.

Have you even asked yourself how, if the state is their only customer, they can up-grade the service ans sell the product back to the government and turn a profit for themselves without charging the state more than the state would have paid to upgrade and continue running the plants?

This don't pencil out a bit.

Unless, of course, the objective is to just find an excuse to fire the current employees and hire cheap unskilled labor in their places.
 
I think it's worth comparing an incident in Wisconsin, where teachers, students and union members protesting Walker's efforts to reign in the out of control Wisconsin budget surrounded and prevented a Republican Representative from even moving, to the incident in 2009 where a group of black US Congressmen decided to provoke an incident by deliberately walking through a group of conservative health care protestors. Remember that? The health care protestors were falsely accused at the time, by democrats and the mainstream media, of calling the black congressmen the N word and spitting on them.

Now here's a video of the Wisconsin incident:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Cx77K8e3WE

Notice how close some of the protestors came to Representative Grothman … literally sticking their cameras and their faces inches from his. Notice at 1:09 his way is blocked by a guy in a hat who aggressively lifts what appears to be a large a brief case. We lose sight of them for a few seconds, then again see him confronting Grothman at 1:12. He's still preventing Grothman from moving forward. Grothman then manages to walk around him, with him and everyone else following him. Starting at 2:09 in the video you can hear what appears to be a woman repeatedly yelling foul words at the Congressman. Over and over.

The behavior we see goes FAR beyond anything videos shows the black Congressmen experienced in Washington in 2009. Protestors there did nothing to prevent the Congressmen from walking through the crowd. And I don't recall foul language being thrown at the Black Congressmen (much less the N word).

At 2:43 you can see a democrat Congressman and his aides step in to rescue Grothman. Even so, both of them end up backed against the West Washington doors, with the crowd aggressively surrounding them. The democrat Congressman unsuccessful makes efforts to quiet the crowd. At 3:35 you can see a woman (perhaps an aide) and the democrat Congressman confronting a man holding a "Walker You're Fired" sign who has been waving it near Grothman's face. The democrat Congressman is so irritated that he finally grabs the sign from the man and you can see them having strong words.

You can see at this point that Grothman is indeed trapped by the crowd. It is so dense and so hostile that there was no way he could go anywhere. They have clearly interferred with him. At 4:43 the democrat Congressman is finally handed a bullhorn and begins to try and reason with the crowd. He tells the crowd he's knows they are angry and they answer "damn right". For the next several minutes he keep imploring the crowd to "keep this peaceful". Obviously even he was worried about the crowd's intent.

He and others ask the crowd to move back and they don't for several minutes. The only one who seems to be backing up is the cameraman. Finally, firefighters arrive and rescue Grothman.

Keep in mind that these are the same protestors who have refused to comply with police directives about leaving the Capital building.

And rather than make incendiary accusations about such treatment, here's Grossman's response:

http://www.wrn.com/2011/03/grothman-downplays-crowd-incident/

The West Bend Republican said he is not bothered by the protestors and he will go chit-chat with them to find out what they have to say.

:D
 
Out of every dollar that funds Wisconsin's pension and health
insurance plans for state workers, 100 cents comes from the state
workers.

How can that be? Because the "contributions" consist of money that
employees chose to take as deferred wages – as pensions when they
retire – rather than take immediately in cash. The same is true with
the health care plan. If this were not so a serious crime would be
taking place, the gift of public funds rather than payment for
services.

Thus, state workers are not being asked to simply "contribute more" to
Wisconsin' s retirement system (or as the argument goes, "pay their
fair share" of retirement costs as do employees in Wisconsin' s
private sector who still have pensions and health insurance). They are
being asked to accept a cut in their salaries so that the state of
Wisconsin can use the money to fill the hole left by tax cuts and
reduced audits of corporations in Wisconsin.

The fact is that all of the money going into these plans belongs to
the workers because it is part of the compensation of the state
workers. The fact is that the state workers negotiate their total
compensation, which they then divvy up between cash wages, paid
vacations, health insurance and, yes, pensions. Since the Wisconsin
government workers collectively bargained for their compensation, all
of the compensation they have bargained for is part of their pay and
thus only the workers contribute to the pension plan. This is an
indisputable fact.

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs...onsin-gov-scott-walkers-union-busting-crusade
 
Their pensions and health care are deferred wages for work already done, and the GOP wants their grubby hands on it. This is not anything new.
 
From the University of Wisconsin website:
Wisconsin Retirement System Pension Contributions

State statutes require the employer to contribute a percent of payroll as determined annually by the trust fund actuary.The amount varies by employment category(for 2011 the rates range from 5.1% to 9.4%)

State statutes require an employee contribution(5%) for most employees,which may be paid by the employer as part the employer’s compensation plan or collective bargaining agreement(s).The state currently pays the full 5% for state employees.


UW FAQ

11.Will my contribution to the WRS change? How will these contributions be credited to my WRS account?

Yes.All state and UW employees covered by the WRS would be required to contribute more towards the WRS.The vast majority of UW System employees currently pay 0.2% of earnings to the WRS.The WRS contribution rate will increase to 5.8% of earnings.Under the bill, employees will be required to pay half the total WRS contribution rate. In 2011, the total WRS contribution rate for most employees is 11.6% of earnings so employees will have to pay 5.8% of earnings.


Wisconsin Department of Employee Trust Funds

For general employees, this year’s total contribution rate to the WRS is set at 11.6%; therefore, one-half of the total WRS contribution rate for most employees is 5.8%.


These all say that, by law, the state pays half of pension contributions. And that the employee half has been paid by the state as well.
This appears to contradict the story currently circulating that employees pay 100% of their pension contributions.

Under the budget repair bill, employees will pay 5.8%. The total rate is 11.6%.
Who pays the other half?
Taxpayers.
 

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