The sad case of Niels Harrit

shaped.gif


why do you disagree with this science?

This is a shaped charge penetrating a steel plate. The application of so much energy to the plate causes tremendous vibrations that travel throughout the object.

If the steel plate is a girder in a skyscraper, these vibrations will be carried down through the buildings frame into the foundation and the pilings underneath the building and will create unique signatures that can be read by experienced seismologists.
 
Nope, not in the slightest.

It was the same graph originally printed in Popular Mechanics along with the professional opinions of Dr Arthur Lerner-Lam and Dr. Won Young Kim of the Lamont Doherty Earth Observatory at Columbia University.

Can you link me to the article with that graph?
 
Right here, P4T:

"There is no scientific basis for the conclusion that explosions brought down the towers," Lerner-Lam tells PM. "That representation of our work is categorically incorrect and not in context."
The report issued by Lamont-Doherty includes various graphs showing the seismic readings produced by the planes crashing into the two towers as well as the later collapse of both buildings. WhatReallyHappened.com chooses to display only one graph (Graph 1), which shows the readings over a 30-minute time span.
On that graph, the 8- and 10-second collapses appear—misleadingly—as a pair of sudden spikes. Lamont-Doherty's 40-second plot of the same data (Graph 2) gives a much more detailed picture: The seismic waves—blue for the South Tower, red for the North Tower—start small and then escalate as the buildings rumble to the ground. Translation: no bombs.


No seismic spikes = no explosives.
 
Patriots4Truth said:
Can you link me to the article with that graph?
http://tinyurl.com/4batae6
:p


That might be funny - copying me and all - if googling that Popular Mechanics article and searching through the article came up with that graph.

It was the same graph originally printed in Popular Mechanics along with the professional opinions of Dr Arthur Lerner-Lam and Dr. Won Young Kim of the Lamont Doherty Earth Observatory at Columbia University.


Are you sure?



Again, where is the graph?
 
This is a shaped charge penetrating a steel plate. The application of so much energy to the plate causes tremendous vibrations that travel throughout the object....
Which is why I gave my military engineers version - it goes "BANG" - and a very loud bang at that.

Then, resuming my civil engineer guise:
...If the steel plate is a girder in a skyscraper, these vibrations will be carried down through the buildings frame into the foundation and the pilings underneath the building and will create unique signatures that can be read by experienced seismologists.
...yes. And the suggestions that cutter charges would not progress through to seismic vibrations are crazy.
 
Patriots4Truth said:
Patriots4Truth said:
the graph in that link went right through you didn't it
Nope, not in the slightest.

It was the same graph originally printed in Popular Mechanics along with the professional opinions of Dr Arthur Lerner-Lam and Dr. Won Young Kim of the Lamont Doherty Earth Observatory at Columbia University.

Click the frakking link and open your bloody eyes.
so let me get this straight, you think these two graphs are the same? Open your frakking eyes.
popularmechanicsseismic.png

&
shaped.gif
 
so let me get this straight, you think these two graphs are the same?

This is what metamars said at your 911forum link:

5 GJ. That's about an order of magnitude difference.


Looking at http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/LCSN/Eq/20010911_wtc.html

I see that the first impact peak is 20 pixels. The scale that goes up to 500 something-or-other is 66 pixels high. As 2.0 on the Richter scale is an actual earthquake (though a weak one that can't be felt by humans), I'll guess that the scale shows .5 on the Richter scale. (No, I'm not sure I'm reading this right.)

See "ldeo.columbia" in MM's link?

This is the screengrab from popular mechanics that you just posted:

popularmechanicsseismic.png


See where it says "LDEO, Columbia University" in the corner?

Now hang down your head and say "D'oh!"
 
Several off-topic posts have been moved to Abandon All Hope. Please stick to the topic of this thread (which is not one of Bazant's papers - there are other perfectly cromulent threads for that).

Also, remember to remain civil and adhere to the rest of the provisions of the Membership Agreement.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: LashL
 
Bentham is a vanity journal where fake papers like Jones' work can be published with no real peer review.

Bentham was "on guard" after the SCIgen scandal by the time Jones submitted his paper. Dr. Griscom certainly qualifies as a peer reviewer, with 190+ publications of his own. If you or anyone can publish a fake paper in Bentham nowadays, as a test of the hypothesis, then it is true. Until then it is just an utterance.
 
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Bentham was "on guard" after the SCIgen scandal by the time Jones submitted his paper. Dr. Griscom certainly qualifies as a peer reviewer, with 190+ publications of his own. If you or anyone can publish a fake paper in Bentham nowadays, as a test of the hypothesis, then it is true. Until then it is just an utterance.
Why are you pursuing the "side track"?

I recall your comment:
...I, for one, am interested in the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
That's why I came to this Forum, to get alternative views, not to be insulted...
Given the topic here is "The sad case of Niels Harrit" the foundation issue which leads to possible "sadness" about the "case" is about thermXte - possibly thermate residues.

At a shallow analysis the question is "Was there thermXte residue on ground zero?"

Given that the raison d'être for this forum is 9/11 conspiracies, the somewhat more fundamental question is "Was thermXte used in demolition at WTC on 9/11"? The brief answer to that question is "No" and a fuller explanation is available if you need it.

Then, having answered that deeper underlying question you can reconsider the shallower one of "Was there thermXte residue on ground zero?"

In answer to that question the simplest response is "So what?" Whether or not thermXte was found on site it was not used for demolition. Therefore the legitimacy of the issue as a matter of 9/11 Conspiracy fails.

And the whole diversion into "did the red/grey chips exist and if so what were they?" becomes a matter of minor interest if any. It could be a personal interest in the growth of fantasies but is of no relevance to the debate over 9/11 WTC conspiracies.

Even as a matter of personal curiosity I am not sure that "...the whole truth" is an achievable goal or even a sensible one despite the historic significane of the statement in common law judicial practice. There must be hundreds of untrue claims made about 9/11 matters. Attempting to know "the whole truth" about everyone of them seems to be a futile and impractical goal. But it is your call on how far you want to dig into myths and fantasies.

However deep you want to go researching "truth" these recent posts into credibility of Bentham and its peer review status are merely pursuing a diversion or derail away from the factors which count. Why not "cut to the chase" of the real issues?
 
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Bentham is a joke. I personally investigated the first "Fourteen Points" paper, and learned from the editor himself that the paper wasn't properly reviewed. Once I got to him, that is. Read about the idiocy here, then part 2, part 3, part 4, and the final denouement.

Amusingly, the SCIgen approach to demonstrating fraud on Bentham's part was mentioned in that very thread, in 2008...

Bentham also spam-mailed me once, asking me to be an editor. So obviously, if they're a quality outfit, they consider my opinions on how to operate a journal worth listening to. And if they're not, then... they're not.

They're not.

Seriously, Truthers, do you think Dr. Jones actually wanted to be in this journal? You think he shopped around the thousands and thousands of journals out there and honestly decided that one was the one he wanted to publish in? The only reason they went there is because it was a simple pay-to-publish with no questions asked. Any real journal would have thrown them out at once.

And it doesn't matter. The nanothermite paper would be dead wrong whether it appeared in Nature or on a subway station wall. Sunstealer has laid out rigorous, irrefutable proof of why their own results contradict their own conclusion. I pointed out several irretrievable problems with the paper at the end of this post. It's junk masquerading as science, and Truthers are simply too blinded by their imaginary cause to see it. End of story.
 
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>I didn't. (say Bentham would post a shopping list)
OK. TruthersLie said that on March 1, 2011 at 08:02 AM.

>You don't see a problem with a publisher that accepts a fake paper.
There was definitely a problem, and a bigger one if they haven't fixed the hole.
We'll find out if Bentham fixed it or not, if they published TruthersLie's paper.


Why stop at that? Why not go best-out-of-five? Or ten? How many fake papers should a publisher be allowed to accept? (Don't answer this, it's just a rethorical question)

We have a publisher that has a proven record of accepting at least one fake paper, had at least two chief editors ( Lucio Frydman and Marie-Paule Pileni) resign, with at least one of them (Pileni) doing so over having papers being published in her paper without her knowing about it. I mean, come on! How much leniency should one publisher get? It's not like there is just one out there.

The question truthers should ask is, why doesn't Harrit et al go to a more competent publisher?
 
If it wasn't published, how do you know about the study? Published means to make public. An open journal is the best way, since it is free for people to read. You are so focused on the means through which the study was made public. How about your ideas about specific aspects of the study itself?

<facepalm>

hey *****, i can "publish" an article that claims I have a 16 inch penis. It doesn't make it true.

I can publish articles in vanity journals which state that Obama is SATAN... that doesn't make it true.

The bentham "article" is a vanity journal. It is not in any way peer reviewed, nor up to the basic standards of any scientific journal.

take a simple research methods class and it might just help you out on the how and why this "article" is such ********.

As for the specific problems with this "study" I have laid them out. There are massive methodological errors. They are such a monumetal **** up they call into question the ENTIRE data set. (which is why you publish with a REAL peer reviewed journal, so you have to actually have people pay attention to your methodology and if you do it wrong, you have to do it again. If you keep doing it wrong, it won't get published....
 
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Please specify. You throw out general terms such as "better methodology"
No this is a very specific charge. If you understood research methods better you would understand the charge.

- better in what specific way? "better sample" - do you propose cherry picking samples, or objectively taking the samples as they come?
can you explain to me why you have 4 samples which each have VASTLY different energy outputs? The variance of the samples with respect to the test done throw the entire set of results into questions.

If it is "nano" engineered, why would large chips have such a large variance? The shouldn't. oospie.


"better control" - this was not a comparison type of experiment, but a chemical identification.
when you do not tell anyone what your control is in a real paper, it shows massively sloppy methodology. Why do they not tell you what the control is? They never do. oopsie. bad methodology.

When they do tell you (not in this "paper") then you find out it was from the BYU stadium... how is that a valid control for any expriment to use a different brand, different manufacturer, different chemical composition? Oh wait... it isn't good methodology. Oopsie.

"neutral atmosphere" - what difference does a researcher's thinking make to a spectrometer?
[/quote]

They burned the samples in an oxygen rich atmosphere... gee... does thermite (any form) need oxygen? no it doesn't. Why wasn't it tested in an inert environment? That would conclusively show it was an exothermic reaction.. but instead they burn it in AIR. Doh... oopsie bad methodology.

do you want to continue to show your ignorance?
 
>It was a vanity journal which would publish your shopping list for $700.
OK you're on with this bet. Submit your shopping list to the Bentham Open Chemistry and Physics Journal, and if it is accepted and published, I'll pay your $700 fee.

Unfortunately I know too many truthers... I wouldn't trust you to pee in a cup. But luckily I don't need to.

OTHERS HAVE ALREADY DONE IT.

http://www.libraryjournal.com/article/CA6664637.html

http://www.earlham.edu/~peters/fos/2009/06/bentham-editors-resign.html

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17288-crap-paper-accepted-by-journal.html

http://911blogger.com/node/20378

http://scholarlykitchen.sspnet.org/2009/06/10/nonsense-for-dollars/

http://www.library.yale.edu/~llicense/ListArchives/0906/msg00075.html

Gee... this is a great bastion of scientific integrity. Amazing...
 

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