The Massei/Mignini Conspiracy Theory

[RoseMontague]

Is the North African refugee the woman in the blue hat?

No, it's the 12 foot invisible lizard with the knife. North Africa is a big place, some have olive skin, many have dark brown and black skin. Patrick seems to fit the bill.

 

[Kaosium]

The voluntary statement of 5:45? How does that prove that the interview/interrogation continued after 1:45?

At 1:45 Amanda was officially made a suspect, thus there could be no 'voluntary' statements after that without taping and a lawyer, which is why the 5:45 AM statement was thrown out. Incidentally, putting 'spontaneous' in the wording doesn't bypass that requirement.

That does bring to mind something, what was the rationale for allowing the 'gift' to be admissible again?

I´m rather more convinced that the version of events as described by the ILE is correct

Then let us hear the ILE's version of events.

 

[stilicho]

No, it's the 12 foot invisible lizard with the knife. North Africa is a big place, some have olive skin, many have dark brown and black skin. Patrick seems to fit the bill.

So let's recap how the conspiracy was uncovered:

1. You found an article from 08 NOV 2007 alleging that some time around 03 NOV 2007 the police were looking for a man of North African descent.
2. You found a photograph of people with dark skin on a web site labelled "North African".
3. Therefore the police were looking for Patrick on 03 NOV 2007.

Is that about right?

 

[Kaosium]

I take it from these that we're all agreed that the police were not looking for a black man prior to Amanda's accusation against Patrick. We can now cross that possibility off the list and the conspiracy loses another vital component.

It´s also clear they weren´t looking for someone with Patricks complexion.

However, perhaps they were looking for someone with the same kind of hair....

Do you have any evidence that a Congolese would be called a "North African"? Do you understand why Italians might use the term "North African" as a mark of distinction between Arabic-looking people and black people?

The could also use the term to differentiate from South African, suggesting Dutch/French/British ancestry. These terms are hardly that confining, think of what Americans (and perhaps Canadians?) refer to as 'Asian.' It's basically just East Asians, even though technically it could also refer to Russians, Turks, Uzbeks, Indians, Urdu etc.

Who do you suppose they were looking for? Certainly not Rudy Guede....

 

[RoseMontague]

So let's recap how the conspiracy was uncovered:

1. You found an article from 08 NOV 2007 alleging that some time around 03 NOV 2007 the police were looking for a man of North African descent.
2. You found a photograph of people with dark skin on a web site labelled "North African".
3. Therefore the police were looking for Patrick on 03 NOV 2007.

Is that about right?

I believe 3 articles were provided showing the police had an interest. All three are local and showed information that only the cops would have at that point. All three were prior to 6 November. Amanda testified that the cops were suggesting Patrick. All you have provided is denials.

Do you have some evidence that the articles were wrong? How could you know that the police were not looking for a dark-skinned man? At this point I have provided evidence confirming the theory and you have provided nothing but sarcasm.

 

[stilicho]

I believe 3 articles were provided showing the police had an interest. All three are local and showed information that only the cops would have at that point. All three were prior to 6 November. Amanda testified that the cops were suggesting Patrick. All you have provided is denials.

Do you have some evidence that the articles were wrong? How could you know that the police were not looking for a dark-skinned man? At this point I have provided evidence confirming the theory and you have provided nothing but sarcasm.

I didn't see anything there about the police looking for a dark-skinned man. Where is that? Moreover, I don't see any connection between the North African moniker and Patrick. Finally, there is no indication from any source that the police talked to Patrick prior to his arrest in connection with Meredith's murder.

That's three strikes right there.

You're confusing allegations with evidence.

 

[stilicho]

I'll actually help you along here, Rose. The only one of the articles specifying any North African individual was the one provided by Christiana:

LAUDROMAT – On the investigators’ files is a statement from two men who came forward on 3 November. “Early yesterday afternoon”, they say, “we went to the coin-operated laundry in Via Fabretti to do our washing. It was about 1.30 pm. We wandered off for a few minutes and when we got back to the laundromat we saw a woman and a foreigner. The foreigner left when we arrived. In front of the woman, we commented on the foreigner’s curious behaviour. She said that the foreigner had staggered in shortly before and put his washing into the machine, including some blue Nike trainers. Then he left and got stuck in the door but quickly managed to freed himself. A little later, he came back and we saw him take his washing out of the machine and put it in the dryer. The woman said she had seen him rummaging in a rubbish skip with another foreigner. He’s about one metre 75 tall with olive skin and must be North African”. It is not known who the man is or whether his odd behaviour has anything to do with the murder. At this stage, however, investigators do not want to overlook any details as they seek to discover whether any other people may have been involved in the murder.

That cannot be the one you're using as the basis for your allegations of a police conspiracy since the incident was reported on 03 NOV 2007 and referring to an incident from 13:30 the previous afternoon. That would have been right around the time that Meredith's body was discovered.

The article is unclear about a lot of details but not about the colour of the man's skin. It was not dark or black but specified as "olive". The police are also not cited as stating they are looking for this man but simply that they don't want to overlook any possible leads in a murder investigation.

Not quite the basis for conspiracy you are alleging.

 

[RoseMontague]

I didn't see anything there about the police looking for a dark-skinned man. Where is that? Moreover, I don't see any connection between the North African moniker and Patrick. Finally, there is no indication from any source that the police talked to Patrick prior to his arrest in connection with Meredith's murder.

That's three strikes right there.

You're confusing allegations with evidence.

It is a theory (this is a discussion regarding that if I am not mistaken), as well as my opinion, and I believe it is fairly obvious the focus of the cops was on a dark skinned man. Kaosium mentions the hair as well and that is another theory worth exploring. I have offered evidence to support the theory and you have said you are not convinced. I doubt that I could convince you of anything even with the most solid of evidence. Like the control room some of this is just common sense, in my opinion.

 

[RoseMontague]

I'll actually help you along here, Rose. The only one of the articles specifying any North African individual was the one provided by Christiana:



That cannot be the one you're using as the basis for your allegations of a police conspiracy since the incident was reported on 03 NOV 2007 and referring to an incident from 13:30 the previous afternoon. That would have been right around the time that Meredith's body was discovered.

The article is unclear about a lot of details but not about the colour of the man's skin. It was not dark or black but specified as "olive". The police are also not cited as stating they are looking for this man but simply that they don't want to overlook any possible leads in a murder investigation.

Not quite the basis for conspiracy you are alleging.

We are making progress if we are up to "not quite". Still I have some doubt that you will ever be convinced.

 

[LondonJohn]

Who's alleging a conspiracy?

The OP of this thread, incidentally, was claiming that the only "conspiracy" in this case was the one invented by Mignini (and accepted by Massei) where Knox and Sollecito conspired with Lumumba oops Guede to sexually assault and murder Meredith Kercher.

 

[LondonJohn]

We are making progress if we are up to "not quite". Still I have some doubt that you will ever be convinced.

You'll find that repeating the word "conspiracy" over and over again will usually suffice in place of a cogent argument

 

[RoseMontague]

Who's alleging a conspiracy?

The OP of this thread, incidentally, was claiming that the only "conspiracy" in this case was the one invented by Mignini (and accepted by Massei) where Knox and Sollecito conspired with Lumumba oops Guede to sexually assault and murder Meredith Kercher.

Yes, that would be a conspiracy. The discussion as I see it is if it is true or not. Looking for a dark-skinned man and ending up with Patrick is part of that, in my opinion. There has been posted elsewhere news that the homeless was just sentenced to 1.5 years in prison for dealing drugs. What part in the Mignini conspiracy does he play, if any?

 

[RoseMontague]

You'll find that repeating the word "conspiracy" over and over again will usually suffice in place of a cogent argument

I don't understand that argument. There have been confirmed conspiracies from the beginnings of recorded history. Is the conspiracy a fact or a fiction is the question. What difference does it make? It is either the truth or it is not.

 

[LondonJohn]

I don't understand that argument. There have been confirmed conspiracies from the beginnings of recorded history. Is the conspiracy a fact or a fiction is the question. What difference does it make? It is either the truth or it is not.

Ahhh...but you see, the word "conspiracy" is very much a dirty word round these parts. People who make any form of argument which might (however loosely) be termed a "conspiracy" can get lazily pigeonholed as unhinged, irrational and maybe even paranoic.

That'll be the fault of the 9/11, Moon landing, AGW and JFK assassination CTers - they've given conspiracy theories a bad name, I tells ya!

 

[LondonJohn]

Yes, that would be a conspiracy. The discussion as I see it is if it is true or not. Looking for a dark-skinned man and ending up with Patrick is part of that, in my opinion. There has been posted elsewhere news that the homeless was just sentenced to 1.5 years in prison for dealing drugs. What part in the Mignini conspiracy does he play, if any?

Given that it appears that the crimes for which he's been sentenced occurred (and were captured by police surveillance and possibly a stooge user) long before the Kercher murder - yet they've only just come before the courts - kind of suggests that dear, sweet Curatolo might just have been a player in a wider game....

 

[Amazer]

Given that it appears that the crimes for which he's been sentenced occurred (and were captured by police surveillance and possibly a stooge user) long before the Kercher murder - yet they've only just come before the courts - kind of suggests that dear, sweet Curatolo might just have been a player in a wider game....

Now would be a really good time to bring some/any evidence with which to support this claim of yours.

 

[stilicho]

It is a theory (this is a discussion regarding that if I am not mistaken), as well as my opinion, and I believe it is fairly obvious the focus of the cops was on a dark skinned man. Kaosium mentions the hair as well and that is another theory worth exploring. I have offered evidence to support the theory and you have said you are not convinced. I doubt that I could convince you of anything even with the most solid of evidence. Like the control room some of this is just common sense, in my opinion.

It's fairly obvious that there is one mention of an olive-skinned man rummaging through garbage bins near a laundromat. His description is nothing like any of those who were arrested. There is not even a supporting quote from any individual in law enforcement unless you include the vague uncredited line about not wanting to overlook any details.

You were supposed to provide evidence that ILE was searching for a black man.

Can we reject your hypothesis as unfounded yet? How long do we have to wait?

The idea is to evaluate each component of your conspiracy theory and then to accept or reject it on the basis of the evidence. Otherwise it's simply a collection of unfounded allegations.

 

[Amazer]

At 1:45 Amanda was officially made a suspect, thus there could be no 'voluntary' statements after that without taping and a lawyer, which is why the 5:45 AM statement was thrown out. Incidentally, putting 'spontaneous' in the wording doesn't bypass that requirement.

That does bring to mind something, what was the rationale for allowing the 'gift' to be admissible again?

So you´re dropping the bit about the interrogation continueing after 1:45... some progress at least.

Then let us hear the ILE's version of events.

Which part of ´No´ didn´t you understand?

 

[Kaosium]

So you´re dropping the bit about the interrogation continuing after 1:45... some progress at least.

No, you misunderstood.

Which part of ´No´ didn´t you understand?

That was a great line when I heard it first, some twenty-five years ago in "Real Genius."

Here's what I'm wondering about, you said:

I´m rather more convinced that the version of events as described by the ILE is correct and that the ´gibberish´ you mention is the result of Amanda´s failed and amateurish attempt to explain what happened in such a way that she herself was not (directly) implicated.

I want to know what you mean by that. You're "...convinced that the version of events as described by the ILE is correct..." however I keep asking you for what that 'version' is without response, so what is it you believe? What gives you such a blind faith in something you can't articulate?

 

[RoseMontague]

It's fairly obvious that there is one mention of an olive-skinned man rummaging through garbage bins near a laundromat. His description is nothing like any of those who were arrested. There is not even a supporting quote from any individual in law enforcement unless you include the vague uncredited line about not wanting to overlook any details.

You were supposed to provide evidence that ILE was searching for a black man.

Can we reject your hypothesis as unfounded yet? How long do we have to wait?

The idea is to evaluate each component of your conspiracy theory and then to accept or reject it on the basis of the evidence. Otherwise it's simply a collection of unfounded allegations.

According to Barbie Nadeau on Page 105 of Angel Face a "black hair that was consistant with someone of African descent" was found at the murder scene.