Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

[kmortis]

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Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: kmortis

 

[carlitos]

On the other hand, DOC's claim in this thread, as much as I gather, is that the NT is the inerrant word of God and that all MSS of the gospels, Acts and letters have had identical texts since the apostles and Paul first wrote them down.

I'd add "in English" to your last sentence. And I'm not even sure that I'm kidding.

 

[ddt]

i'd add "in english as per the KJV" to your last sentence. And i'm not even sure that i'm kidding.

FTFY. Or are there other inerrant English versions?

 

[joobz]

I have just discovered <snip melodrama>

I assume this means that you will not be posting here now. That's a shame as we could have learned from each other.

 

[John Jones]

I have <contempt snipped>

See how that works?

 

[Amazer]

See how that works?

Not realy... Can you show it one more time?

 

[John Jones]

Not realy... Can you show it one more time?

Actually, no.

 

[joobz]

Not realy... Can <snip butter pecan pie>

I don't understand the question.

 

[zooterkin]

I have just discovered that a number of my posts have been removed from this thread and placed, out of context, elsewhere.

Where that number is 1, and the post was moved for breaking the MA.

I regret that I do not contribute to fora which edit my posts, or otherwise manipulate them to appear other than as they were written.

How ironic, since I suspect that's exactly why your post was moved, for manipulating quoted text to make it appear other than it was written, as well as being uncivil.

 

[DOC]

...Given that using a source (such as the NT) to prove the veracity of that same source is fallacious,

Your use of the word "prove" is your wording, not mine. And the 27 books of the NT by 9 different writers is historical evidence plain and simple, especially the works of gospel writer Luke who has been called a great historian regarding non-supernatural events by a respected archaeologist.

it's not unreasonable for participants in the thread to request extra-biblical evidence to support these contentions,

I agree, that's why I gave this info from Geisler's book (pg. 223) cited in post # 1. All of the following facts were derived collectively from "Non-Christian" sources. These sources include such people as Josephus, Tacitus, Celsus etc.

1) Jesus lived during time of Tiberius Caesar.

2) He lived a virtuous life.

3) He was a wonder worker.

4) He had a brother {some say cousin} named James.

5) He was acclaimed to be the Messiah.

6) He was crucified under Pontius Pilate.

7) He was crucified on the eve of the Jewish Passover.

8) Darkness and an earthquake occurred when he died.

9) His disciples believe he rose from the dead.

10) His disciples were willing to die for their belief.

11) Christianity spread as far as Rome.

12) His disciples denied the Roman gods and worshiped Jesus as God.

Remember these are all facts that can be found in "Non-Christian" independent sources.

Note: Actually I haven't been able to verify #8 yet. Phlegon talked about darkness and there was some talk of an eclipse but Origen disagreed with him that it was a solar eclipse. So fact #8 is a little confusing and the time line of the eclipse is not clear.

hence the list of questions to DOC. Questions, I might add, which have been asked and dodged many times. If the OP brings the death of Simon the Zealot to the thread, and presents this martyrdom as evidence for his OP, it is not unreasonable for people to ask just what form this martyrdom took.

And that's why I answered I don't know specifically how this obscure apostle died. Your point is misleading because the link I brought in mentioned 15 martyrs, not just SImon the Zealot. No, I didn't research each and every death of each of the 15. Do you research each and every fact on a link you might bring in?

May I respectfully suggest that had you had a little more knowledge of the preceding 461 pages, you might have posted slightly differently.

And he might have left his post exactly the same.

 

[joobz]

2) He lived a virtuous life.

Condoning the beating of slaves is not virtuous. It's despicable.
Condoning thought Crimes is not virtuous. It's sinister.

 

[Lothian]

Your use of the word "prove" is your wording, not mine. And the 27 books of the NT by 9 different writers is historical evidence plain and simple, especially the works of gospel writer Luke who has been called a great historian regarding non-supernatural events by a respected archaeologist.

No one cares about the non-supernatural events. Jesus is nothing without the magic and there is no evidence whatsoever of any magic.

I agree, that's why I gave this info from Geisler's book (pg. 223) cited in post # 1. All of the following facts were derived collectively from "Non-Christian" sources. These sources include such people as Josephus, Tacitus, Celsus etc.

You are very good at jumping form info or possibility or chance to facts, lets stick to claims in Geisler's book until they are confirmed.

1) Jesus lived during time of Tiberius Caesar.

Where is this non biblical source? Notwithstanding the dubious nature of his very existence, so what? This does not mean he is the son of a teenage virgin raped by a manifestation of himself or that he died, became a zombie and joined himself above the firmament

2) He lived a virtuous life.

Where is this non biblical source? So what. This does not mean he is the son of a teenage virgin raped by a manifestation of himself or that he died, became a zombie and joined himself above the firmament

3) He was a wonder worker.

Where is this non biblical source? I am looking for a non biblical source present during his wonders. Someone claiming he he had a reputation or people believing he worked wonders does not count.

4) He had a brother {some say cousin} named James.

Where is this non biblical source? So what. This does not mean he is the son of a teenage virgin raped by a manifestation of himself or that he died, became a zombie and joined himself above the firmament

5) He was acclaimed to be the Messiah.

Where is this non biblical source? So what. This does not mean he is the son of a teenage virgin raped by a manifestation of himself or that he died, became a zombie and joined himself above the firmament. If I claim Aberhaten to be the messiah does that mean that he is?

6) He was crucified under Pontius Pilate.

Where is this non biblical source? So what. This does not mean he is the son of a teenage virgin raped by a manifestation of himself or that he died, became a zombie and joined himself above the firmament

7) He was crucified on the eve of the Jewish Passover.

Where is this non biblical source? So what. This does not mean he is the son of a teenage virgin raped by a manifestation of himself or that he died, became a zombie and joined himself above the firmament

8) Darkness and an earthquake occurred when he died.

You know this is crap and stories of walking zombies are pure fiction.

9) His disciples believe he rose from the dead.

Who cares. disciples of Moon, Hubbard and Smith believe the fiction around their lives. Belief is not evidence.

10) His disciples were willing to die for their belief.

Simon the Zealot was a disciple. Was he willing to die for his belief? Enquiring minds want to know.

Jim Jones disciples were willing to die for their belief. Is dying for your belief evidence of truth? The parents of suicide bombers want to know.

Not that any of this means Jesus is the son of a teenage virgin raped by a manifestation of himself or that he died, became a zombie and joined himself above the firmament

11) Christianity spread as far as Rome.

This does not mean he is the son of a teenage virgin raped by a manifestation of himself or that he died, became a zombie and joined himself above the firmament. Scientology has spread all over the world. Does spread mean truth

12) His disciples denied the Roman gods and worshiped Jesus as God.

Where is this non biblical source? So what. This does not mean he is the son of a teenage virgin raped by a manifestation of himself or that he died, became a zombie and joined himself above the firmament

Remember these are all facts that can be found in "Non-Christian" independent sources.

Remember criticising others for not providing links?

And that's why I answered I don't know specifically how this obscure apostle died. Your point is misleading because the link I brought in mentioned 15 martyrs, not just SImon the Zealot. No, I didn't research each and every death of each of the 15.

Yet you are happy to repeat the claim that his disciples were willing to die for their belief. (See 10 above). Why is this not a lie?

 

[Akhenaten]

...Given that using a source (such as the NT) to prove the veracity of that same source is fallacious,

Your use of the word "prove" is your wording, not mine.

Hmm . . .

No, I didn't and it's your job to prove it since you made the claim.

Your use of the word "prove" is your wording, not mine.

And the 27 books of the NT by 9 different writers is historical evidence plain and simple, especially the works of gospel writer Luke who has been called a great historian regarding non-supernatural events by a respected archaeologist.

Back to this drivel, are we?

DOC, you have provided no evidence that this Luke fellow or any of your other alleged New Testament writers even existed, so you have absolutely no basis upon which to make a claim that what they allegedly wrote is "historical evidence" of any kind, no matter what your nameless "respected archæologist" has to say about the matter.

it's not unreasonable for participants in the thread to request extra-biblical evidence to support these contentions.

I agree, that's why I gave this info from Geisler's book (pg. 223) cited in post # 1. All of the following facts were derived collectively from "Non-Christian" sources. These sources include such people as Josephus, Tacitus, Celsus etc.

1) Jesus lived during time of Tiberius Caesar.

2) He lived a virtuous life.

3) He was a wonder worker.

4) He had a brother {some say cousin} named James.

5) He was acclaimed to be the Messiah.

6) He was crucified under Pontius Pilate.

7) He was crucified on the eve of the Jewish Passover.

8) Darkness and an earthquake occurred when he died.

9) His disciples believe he rose from the dead.

10) His disciples were willing to die for their belief.

11) Christianity spread as far as Rome.

12) His disciples denied the Roman gods and worshiped Jesus as God.

Just because that lying fool Geisler wrote the above and claimed it to be factual means absolutely nothing, as has been pointed out to you hundreds, if not thousands of times.

Geisler can't even be properly regarded as a secondary source, DOC, and you bloody well know it. If you want any of these ridiculous claims to stand then you'd better get to work and try to hunt up some real evidence.

And don't bother repeating that "something useful in forming an opinion" tripe that passes for your definition of evidence. Nobody is interested in the fairytale nonsense that is the basis for your opinions.

Remember these are all facts that can be found in "Non-Christian" independent sources.

Remember???

How are we to remember that which we've yet to be shown?

Note: Actually I haven't been able to verify #8 yet. Phlegon talked about darkness and there was some talk of an eclipse but Origen disagreed with him that it was a solar eclipse. So fact #8 is a little confusing and the time line of the eclipse is not clear.

Setting aside this floundering nonsense, how (just to pick two of the more outrageous items on the list) were you able to verify that:

2) [Jesus] lived a virtuous life.

3) [Jesus] was a wonder worker.​

???

And while we're at it, I'll just point out that:

9) His disciples believe he rose from the dead.​

is evidence of nothing more than the fact that some people will believe anything, which we already knew, thanks very much.

Hence the list of questions to DOC. Questions, I might add, which have been asked and dodged many times. If the OP brings the death of Simon the Zealot to the thread, and presents this martyrdom as evidence for his OP, it is not unreasonable for people to ask just what form this martyrdom took.

And that's why I answered I don't know specifically how this obscure apostle died. Your point is misleading because the link I brought in mentioned 15 martyrs, not just SImon the Zealot. No, I didn't research each and every death of each of the 15. Do you research each and every fact on a link you might bring in?

DOC, you claimed that the fact of Simon the Zealot simply having been written about is evidence that the NT writers told the truth.

Well it's been asked how did "Simon the Zealot" die. I don't know how this relatively obscure apostle died but just the fact he is written about can be considered evidence the NT writers told the truth because it doesn't make sense to give someone the same name as the lead apostle Simon Peter. If I wrote a book about some fictional football offense I wouldn't name the quarterback Ted and name the wide receiver Ted also.

So, DOC, since evidence for the NT's truthiness is the thread topic, and since you have claimed that what has been written about Simon the Zealot is evidence, it's perfectly reasonable for people to ask you what it is that was written, by whom and why we should accept it as evidence.

Nobody has yet demanded that you to "research each and every death of each of the 15". We've asked you to research just this one.

You might want to research the tu quoque fallacy while you're at it.

May I respectfully suggest that had you had a little more knowledge of the preceding 461 pages, you might have posted slightly differently.

And he might have left his post exactly the same.

Who in the name of Gunderscored are you talking to/about here?

Are you ever going to learn how to quote?

 

[welshdean]

1) Jesus lived during time of Tiberius Caesar.

There is no, NO extra-biblical, archaeological, historical evidence of this.

2) He lived a virtuous life.

No he didn't! If he did exist, he was despicable; See Joobz's post just after your list I'm quoting here.

3) He was a wonder worker.

Ha Ha Ha, says which of the copious writers of the Roman Age contemporaneous to his alleged lifetime.

4) He had a brother {some say cousin} named James.

I have a brother named Anthony. I don't see your point!

5) He was acclaimed to be the Messiah.

I stopped bullys in school, I was revered by the physically weak, they thought I was a messiah of sorts.

6) He was crucified under Pontius Pilate.

No he wasn't! If there is one thing that is undeniable of the Roman empire, it's that they were meticulous record keepers. If they crucified one, any or a trio of peoples and the sky went dark, an earthquake occurred and zombies roamed the earth, they definately would have wrote about it.

7) He was crucified on the eve of the Jewish Passover.
DOC, you know that is a lie....!
John 19:14
And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him.
Mark 14:12And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover? Mark 15:25And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.

8) Darkness and an earthquake occurred when he died.

No it didn't, there is one thing that is undeniable of the Roman empire, it's that they were meticulous record keepers. If they crucified one, any or a trio of peoples and the sky went dark, an earthquake occurred and zombies roamed the earth, they definately would have wrote about it.

9) His disciples believe he rose from the dead.

I believe I've got a massive todger!! whatever, belief, on it's own, doesn't make anything a fact. No matter how strong or delusional.

10) His disciples were willing to die for their belief.

Do you mean Simon the Zealot? How did he die? Or do you mean Judas, the fella that hung himself, exploded after he stumbled in a field?

11) Christianity spread as far as Rome.

Chlamydia, has spread as far as my neighbour's 22 year old son, I still don't see the point you're trying to make.

12) His disciples denied the Roman gods and worshiped Jesus as God.

The Romans denied the Norse, Indian, Sumatran, Mayan, Mithran [etc, etc, etc etc ad infinitum] gods, I still don't see the point you're trying to make.

Remember these are all facts that can be found in "Non-Christian" independent sources.

Not a single one of these points could be deemed as 'fact', and not a single one of them had ever been described as a 'fact' outside of an apologists scrawl.

Note: Actually I haven't been able to verify #8 yet. Phlegon talked about darkness and there was some talk of an eclipse but Origen disagreed with him that it was a solar eclipse. So fact #8 is a little confusing and the time line of the eclipse is not clear.

Ha, typical, you can't 'verify' it yet you describe it as:

Remember these are all facts that can be found in "Non-Christian" independent sources.

You really are pitiful DOC.

And that's why I answered I don't know specifically how this obscure apostle died. Your point is misleading because the link I brought in mentioned 15 martyrs, not just SImon the Zealot. No, I didn't research each and every death of each of the 15. Do you research each and every fact on a link you might bring in?

You've had enough time to research just one death of an alleged martyr though, haven't you DOC? The fact that you have and found Simon's death to be a bit of a mystery, to the point that you won't even discuss it is despicable. Why can't won't you see that his [Simon] death is integral to your argument?

 

[welshdean]

Oh Jeesus, Lothian and Aberhaten are quick of the mark!

 

[Elizabeth I]

Your use of the word "prove" is your wording, not mine. And the 27 books of the NT by 9 different writers is historical evidence plain and simple, especially the works of gospel writer Luke who has been called a great historian regarding non-supernatural events by a respected archaeologist.

You keep saying this. It doesn't support your position as much as you seem to think it does.

3) He was a wonder worker.

I want to see a direct quotation, with a citation, from a non-Biblical, non-Christian source that says this.

 

[amb]

Your use of the word "prove" is your wording, not mine. And the 27 books of the NT by 9 different writers is historical evidence plain and simple, especially the works of gospel writer Luke who has been called a great historian regarding non-supernatural events by a respected archaeologist.



I agree, that's why I gave this info from Geisler's book (pg. 223) cited in post # 1. All of the following facts were derived collectively from "Non-Christian" sources. These sources include such people as Josephus, Tacitus, Celsus etc.

1) Jesus lived during time of Tiberius Caesar.

2) He lived a virtuous life.

3) He was a wonder worker.

4) He had a brother {some say cousin} named James.

5) He was acclaimed to be the Messiah.

6) He was crucified under Pontius Pilate.

7) He was crucified on the eve of the Jewish Passover.

8) Darkness and an earthquake occurred when he died.

9) His disciples believe he rose from the dead.

10) His disciples were willing to die for their belief.

11) Christianity spread as far as Rome.

12) His disciples denied the Roman gods and worshiped Jesus as God.

Remember these are all facts that can be found in "Non-Christian" independent sources.

Note: Actually I haven't been able to verify #8 yet. Phlegon talked about darkness and there was some talk of an eclipse but Origen disagreed with him that it was a solar eclipse. So fact #8 is a little confusing and the time line of the eclipse is not clear.



And that's why I answered I don't know specifically how this obscure apostle died. Your point is misleading because the link I brought in mentioned 15 martyrs, not just SImon the Zealot. No, I didn't research each and every death of each of the 15. Do you research each and every fact on a link you might bring in?



And he might have left his post exactly the same.

So, DOC, you are using the gospels to defend the gospels again !
There is no credibility in that tactic I'm afraid.

 

[zooterkin]

Your use of the word "prove" is your wording, not mine. And the 27 books of the NT by 9 different writers is historical evidence plain and simple, especially the works of gospel writer Luke who has been called a great historian regarding non-supernatural events by a respected archaeologist.

Do you read any of the replies you get here? The fact that Sir William Mitchell Ramsay may have been respected as an archaeologist over a hundred years ago doesn't mean that his opinion on the accuracy of the author of 'Luke' on the non-supernatural events has any weight today. Even if it did, it has no bearing on the truth of the significant parts of the New Testament, viz the supernatural ones.

 

[DOC]

1) Jesus lived during time of Tiberius Caesar...

There is no, NO extra-biblical, archaeological, historical evidence of this.

From the article "Historian Tacitus"

"Tacitus wrote at least four historic treatises. Around 115 AD, he published Annals in which he explicitly states that Nero prosecuted the Christians in order to draw attention away from himself for Rome's devastating fire of 64 AD. In that context, he mentions Christus who was put to death by Pontius Pilate.

Christus: Annals 15.44.2-8 {by the historian/Roman senator Tacitus}

"Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus,..."

http://www.jesus-institute.org/life-of-jesus-ancient/jesus-tacitus.shtml

 

[welshdean]

From the article "Historian Tacitus"

"Tacitus wrote at least four historic treatises. Around 115 AD, he published Annals in which he explicitly states that Nero prosecuted the Christians in order to draw attention away from himself for Rome's devastating fire of 64 AD. In that context, he mentions Christus who was put to death by Pontius Pilate.

Christus: Annals 15.44.2-8 {by the historian/Roman senator Tacitus}

"Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus,..."

http://www.jesus-institute.org/life-of-jesus-ancient/jesus tacitus.shtml

Oh dear DOC, your not being very honest here are you. You've been told numerous times not to rely on apologist sources and yet you continue to do so. Just 10 mins looking and I found this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus_on_Christ

The surviving copies of Tacitus' works derive from two principal manuscripts, known as the Medicean manuscripts, which are held in the Laurentian Library, and written in Latin. It is the second Medicean manuscript which is the oldest surviving copy of the passage describing Christians. In this manuscript, the first 'i' of the Christianos is quite distinct in appearance from the second, looking somewhat smudged, and lacking the long tail of the second 'i'; additionally, there is a large gap between the first 'i' and the subsequent long s. Georg Andresen was one of the first to comment on the appearance of the first 'i' and subsequent gap, suggesting in 1902 that the text had been altered, and an 'e' had originally been in the text, rather than this 'i'[8].
In 1950, at Harald Fuchs' request, Dr. Teresa Lodi, the director of the Laurentian Library, examined the features of this item of the manuscript; she concluded that there are still signs of an 'e' being erased, by removal of the upper and lower horizontal portions, and distortion of the remainder into an 'i'.[9] In 2008, Dr. Ida Giovanna Rao, the new head of the Laurentian Library's manuscript office, repeated Lodi's study, and concluded that it is likely that the 'i' is a correction of some earlier character (like an e), the change being made an extremely subtle one. Later the same year, it was discovered that under ultraviolet light, an 'e' is clearly visible in the space, meaning that the passage must originally have referred to chrestianos, a Latinized Greek word which could be interpreted as the good, after the Greek word χρηστός (chrestos), meaning 'good, useful'.[10]
According to Professor Robert Renehan, it was "natural for a Roman to interpret the words [Christus and Christianus] as the similarly-sounding χρηστός".[11] [12] Some early Greek scribes apparently had a similar issue, for the word for "Christians" is Χρηστιανούς in Acts of the Apostles 11:26 according to both Codex Sinaiticus and in Minuscule 81.[13]
"I believe that in our passage of Tacitus, the original reading Chrestianos is the true one," says Professor Robert Renehan, stating that it was "natural for a Roman to interpret the words [Christus and Christianus] as the similarly-sounding χρηστός". If this is the case, then the passage is authentic as a "Christian scribe" would not make such an error.[14] [15] [16] [17] [18] Indeed, the vast majority of scholars believe that this passage is fundamentally sound.[19]

So DOC, I can and do still stand by this statement:

Originally Posted by welshdean
There is no, NO extra-biblical, archaeological, historical evidence of this.

It appears that you can't stand by your statement:

Originally Posted by DOC

1) Jesus lived during time of Tiberius Caesar...