Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Chris_Halkides]

not either or

Your focus I assume is Amanda and Raffaele, others think of the murder victim.

CoulsdonUK,

To the best of my abilities to judge, none of the pro-innocence commenters has lost sight of Meredith or her family. We (if I may be so bold as to speak for others) think both of Amanda and Raffaele, and of Meredith.

 

[colonelhall]

"Do you mean the film, or do you mean the documentary which followed the film? Curt Knox and Edda Mellas (not Eddie Melas) are thanked in the end credits to the documentary, which is hardly surprising since they appeared in it. AFAIK, Knox parents are not thanked or even acknowledged in the end credits of the film."

My apologies, if I got this wrong. However, it was my understanding that the parents were only too willing to be involved in the making of the film, when they thought that it would show her in a positive light.

Am I wrong, or did Curt Knox try to arrange a meeting between his daughter and the "Heroes" girl?

 

[CoulsdonUK]

CoulsdonUK,

To the best of my abilities to judge, none of the pro-innocence commenters has lost sight of Meredith or her family. We (if I may be so bold as to speak for others) think both of Amanda and Raffaele, and of Meredith.

I find your comment sincere and heartening.

I must confess to a sensitivity about people in their ardent support of Amanda and Raffaele, sometimes forget that Meredith Kercher was brutally murdered. I also accept that it is entirely possible to believe in Amanda and Raffaele innocence but also empathise with Meredith’s parents, brothers and sister. For me there is a world of difference between Amanda and Raffaele plight and the certainty of Meredith’s family and friends, thats all.

 

[Antony]

I don't know the results of the DNA re-examination of the knife or Meredith's bra clasp, nor do I know the results of the cross examination of previous witnesses, basically the forth coming appeal. The rational conclusion is that there is a legal process unfolding which may or may not result in their release. I for one want to hear, indeed will hear what is said in the appeal, what is legally argued, what the result of the geneticist findings etc. This does not strike me as unreasonable.

This wasn't the question that I asked, which was about all those in general expressing the view of guilt - not you in particular - and whether that view is one that is based on the facts surrounding the crime.

As for your own view - you've previously said that your view is based solely on the current court ruling in force; so not on any independent consideration of facts at all.

 

[LondonJohn]

LondonJohn, did you maybe record the documentary?

It hasn't been shown on TV in the UK. But if you're familiar with using torrents, you'll find the film and the documentary available through that route...

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Seeing as how you were so influenced by the movie's portrayal of the case, how did it affect your theory that Amanda ran out of the cottage to get Raffaele and that he came running back with the kitchen knife to defend Amanda, only to suddenly turn on a dime and help Rudy overtake Meredith? I didn't see the movie so maybe that was in there. I hear they got a lot of things wrong.

That is nothing like my theory at all - except the part about Amanda running away to get RS - from there on its all made up.

 

[HumanityBlues]

My apologies, if I got this wrong. However, it was my understanding that the parents were only too willing to be involved in the making of the film, when they thought that it would show her in a positive light.

What's your source for this "understanding"?

 

[Justinian2]

That is nothing like my theory at all - except the part about Amanda running away to get RS - from there on its all made up.

The Buddhists have a theory.
The Catholics have a theory.
The Jews have a theory.
The Protestants have a theory.
They all would die for their theory.

Theories belong in theology - not the damn court!

 

[Fine]

I could be wrong about what I remembered of the aspiration pattern on the bra. There was a photo that showed the blood drops on her chest under where the bra would have been and I thought it mentioned the same pattern also on the bra.

In any case, unless someone has experience physically assaulting woman, it wouldn't be presumed that a bra could just be ripped off. If the intent was to remove the bra, it would have been unhooked and/or the straps cut.
The strain on the clasp shows a significant force was used to pull on the band. If we exclude using this force to remove the bra that leaves attempting to restrain Meredith or moving her. If she is standing or kneeling, that much force would pull her over backwards. Perhaps she could be falling but the the force would have been pulling up and not strained the right strap that has to peel off first.

Unless someone comes up with another viable option, I see Meredith already on the floor face down or on her left side when the band is pulled ripping off the right strap and clasp. If the left strap also failed at this time, the entire bra would have been pulled out from under the right arm. I don't see this as likely because the bra would have either been dropped or discarded behind the assailant which would have left the bra in the center of the room or by the bed. If instead, the stance is shifted to grab the left strap from the front, when the strap breaks and the bra is discarded behind the assailant, it ends up at meredith's feet. In either case, the bra could have come off before Meredith was turned onto her back.

The location of marks on Meredith's left arm would indicate how the bra was being pulled before the strap broke. This however doesn't appear to have been recorded.

____________________

Dan,

It was a violent struggle and so I doubt that it would be easy to unhook the bra clasp. And not so easy to cut the straps + band. It's not like Meredith was inclined to hold still.

In my opinion the flimsy bra was jerked off in one motion, as Meredith was standing. Grabbing the bra from front/back/side the shoulder straps and the seam to the bra clasp failed (in whatever chronological order), and with that the whole bra was ripped off, leaving the clasp hanging from the bra by one undamaged hook. Somehow---via elastic whiplash or by the bra being dropped or kicked--- the intact hook then separated from its mated eye ring. Then the bra was in two parts, bra proper and bra clasp, both on the floor. If the bra was ripped off in one motion---while she stood--- it's easy to see how the bra clasp was found under Meredith's hips, and bra proper at her feet. If the bra was ripped off in one motion---while she was on her back---the clasp would not have been found under her hips and the bra proper not likely found at her feet.

Has anyone found any evidence that the bra band was cut?

///

 

[RWVBWL]

Bedroom scene...

Yea, changed mine a bit, I've said for a long time I'm about 70 to 75 percent sure of guilt - you can now raise that to 80%.

Now about the movie, I bet the greater majority of people that watched it, know nothing about Amanda and this case, I have the feeling those people will definitely be leaning towards guilt and I wonder, is that the reason it is hardly even been discussed here, is everyone here disappointed the way it played out.

Hi Sherlock Holmes,
I have a few questions for you that I hope you might answer, since I did not watch the movie, yet.

Correct me if I am wrong, but is there not a scene in the movie where Amanda, Raffaele and Rudy are with Meredith in her bedroom and she is then brutally stabbed to her death? From what I have read, the Hollywood movie bedroom is a bit larger, allowing more freedom of movement, so to say...

With this movie scene still fairly fresh in your mind, how can you reconcile the fact that Amanda left not 1 trace of herself ever being inside Meredith's bedroom when she was killed to what you have now watched in the movie? If the bra clasp were thrown out as evidence due to contamination, how come there is not any trace of Raffaele's presence in the bedroom too as the murder occurred?

However, there is ample trace of Rudy in Meredith's bedroom though, whichever theory we do believe.

Does the movie show Meredith's blood getting on Amanda or Raffaele? Did Amanda and Raffaele touch anything while in the bedroom? Surely their presence inside the bedroom, which you have now seen re-created, would have left some form of evidence, such as a hair, fingerprint, handprint, or as in Rudy's case, multiple traces of DNA in that room, wouldn't you think?

But strangely,
in the real life, bloody, brutal murder of Meredith Kercher that we discuss here, this did not happen. How can this be?

I hope that you or someone else who has seen the movie will respond and answer my questions.
Take it easy everyone,
RWVBWL


PS-I am an OG* surfer, a guy who ran an old surfshop in "DogTown" for many years upon which Hollywood also made a fictional, "Based on a true story" movie called "Lords of DogTown" which was about the surfshop's early roots. After it was played in movie theaters and was released on DVD, I watched young, impressionable kids and young adults come into the store who believed the movie true. Heck, most even thought "Sid", who in the movie died of brain cancer, was a real person, but he wasn't...

Hollywood distorts the truth in every "Based on a true story" it makes...

Fortunately, Stacy Peralta,
-(1 of the best of the Z-Boys skate boarders on the Zephyr team),
made the documentary "DogTown and Z-Boys", which tells the "true story" like it really was...
L8, RW

*-OG: Old Geezer surfer!

 

[colonelhall]

My source for statement that Knox family wanted Amanda to meet the Heroes girl?

It was widely reported in many news outlets, in the early days of production. It was some time ago, but I distinctly remember that the family were not particularly against the idea of the film.

This quote, recently reported on ABC, for instance:

"We, quite some time back, asked Hayden to visit Amanda, but they never got back to us after several conversations," Mellas said.

 

[lionking]

I've only watched half the movie, but the most striking thing to me is how bad the acting is.

 

[Fine]

In the Massei Report I found just one reason to think the bra band had been cut (English Translation, page196):


"With reference to the victim’s bra, exhibit *reperto] 59, which was found not too far from the corpse’s feet, Dr. Stefanoni indicated the point in which a cut had most likely been made, since it was where there was a clear cutting off in the material"


Note that Stefanoni didn't testify, definitively, that the bra had been cut. And she provides a poor reason since the same observation is consistent with the bra clasp breaking at the seam, the seam joining bra clasp material with bra band material.

///

 

[billyryan]

Hi Sherlock Holmes,
I have a few questions for you that I hope you might answer, since I did not watch the movie, yet.

Correct me if I am wrong, but is there not a scene in the movie where Amanda, Raffaele and Rudy are with Meredith in her bedroom and she is then brutally stabbed to her death? From what I have read, the Hollywood movie bedroom is a bit larger, allowing more freedom of movement, so to say...

With this movie scene still fairly fresh in your mind, how can you reconcile the fact that Amanda left not 1 trace of herself ever being inside Meredith's bedroom when she was killed to what you have now watched in the movie? If the bra clasp were thrown out as evidence due to contamination, how come there is not any trace of Raffaele's presence in the bedroom too as the murder occurred?

However, there is ample trace of Rudy in Meredith's bedroom though, whichever theory we do believe.

Does the movie show Meredith's blood getting on Amanda or Raffaele? Did Amanda and Raffaele touch anything while in the bedroom? Surely their presence inside the bedroom, which you have now seen re-created, would have left some form of evidence, such as a hair, fingerprint, handprint, or as in Rudy's case, multiple traces of DNA in that room, wouldn't you think?

But strangely,
in the real life, bloody, brutal murder of Meredith Kercher that we discuss here, this did not happen. How can this be?

I hope that you or someone else who has seen the movie will respond and answer my questions.
Take it easy everyone,
RWVBWL


PS-I am an OG* surfer, a guy who ran an old surfshop in "DogTown" for many years upon which Hollywood also made a fictional, "Based on a true story" movie called "Lords of DogTown" which was about the surfshop's early roots. After it was played in movie theaters and was released on DVD, I watched young, impressionable kids and young adults come into the store who believed the movie true. Heck, most even thought "Sid", who in the movie died of brain cancer, was a real person, but he wasn't...

Hollywood distorts the truth in every "Based on a true story" it makes...

Fortunately, Stacy Peralta,
-(1 of the best of the Z-Boys skate boarders on the Zephyr team),
made the documentary "DogTown and Z-Boys", which tells the "true story" like it really was...
L8, RW

*-OG: Old Geezer surfer!

Logic alone RWVBWL answers your question,the reason there is no trace of Amanda in the murder room and only the planted trace of Raffaele is because neither were present on the night of 1/11/2007

The same goes for the brave men of the ILE having not denied that they kicked punched and racially abused Patrick Lumumba on the 6/11/2007,that they also slapped Amanda Knox on the back of the head on the night before

In the civil part of the persecution of Amanda Knox there are eight officers, three have dropped out in the persecution of Amanda's parents,despite being such well practiced liars I can't help wondering how many would have the neck to form a civil part against Patrick

Of course it goes without saying that the tapes of Patrick's interrogation are missing/lost/were never made/stolen/self destructed/incinerated/wiped clean by Amanda Knox/vapourised

 

[CoulsdonUK]

This wasn't the question that I asked, which was about all those in general expressing the view of guilt - not you in particular - and whether that view is one that is based on the facts surrounding the crime.

As for your own view - you've previously said that your view is based solely on the current court ruling in force; so not on any independent consideration of facts at all.

What do you actually think will happen over the next 6 months or so other than the appeal? What body other than an Italian court do you think should be presiding over what is a legal process?

 

[Antony]

What do you actually think will happen over the next 6 months or so other than the appeal? What body other than an Italian court do you think should be presiding over what is a legal process?

I don't quite see what point you're making. You seem to want to talk about something else rather than clarifying this response of yours:

People whose views are based on the facts will not be influenced by the movie, and my impression is that of those people the overwhelming majority conclude that both Amanda and Raffaele were wrongly accused and wrongly convicted.

That is certainly a view shared by those who believe in Amanda and Raffaele innocence, but as we know it is not the only view.

As for your questions, of course an Italian court has to put right the injustice perpetrated by the first trial, and there's reason to be hopeful that the appeal court will follow the facts rather than the hysteria that guided the first court's decision.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

I don't quite see what point you're making. You seem to want to talk about something else rather than clarifying this response of yours:





As for your questions, of course an Italian court has to put right the injustice perpetrated by the first trial, and there's reason to be hopeful that the appeal court will follow the facts rather than the hysteria that guided the first court's decision.

I have answered the question in the manner of my choosing it is not necessary or likely that we will agree with our respective positions. I can and do only express my own opinions; I am not part of a collective group of people with a single focused goal. It is a simple fact that there are two basic views prosecution and defence you believe Amanda and Raffaele are innocent. However, it is a simple rational fact that the appeal process and only the appeal process will determine whether they are to be released or their convictions confirmed none of us get a vote.

 

[Kaosium]

What do you actually think will happen over the next 6 months or so other than the appeal?

You could read the Massei Report. One nice thing about the Italian system is they wrap all their reasoning and evidence into a pretty 400 page package. You can see for yourself if there's reason to believe Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito conspired with Rudy Guede to murder Meredith.

It might aid in your understanding both sides of the issue, as well as the case.

 

[Justinian2]

You could read the Massei Report. One nice thing about the Italian system is they wrap all their reasoning and evidence into a pretty 400 page package. You can see for yourself if there's reason to believe Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito conspired with Rudy Guede to murder Meredith.

It might aid in your understanding both sides of the issue, as well as the case.

For example, on page 367 of the Massei translation of the Amanda Knox trial:

Therefore it may be deduced that, accustomed to the consumption of drugs and the effects of the latter, Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito participated actively in Rudy’s criminal acts aimed at overcoming Meredith’s resistance, subjugating her will and thus allowing Rudy to act out his lustful impulses; and this is considered to have happened because, for those [i.e. for people] who did not disdain the use of drugs (Amanda has stated that on that evening, before “making love”, they had consumed drugs watching films and reading comic books in which sexuality is accompanied by violence and by situations of fear, disregarding the concept of sexuality as an encounter of [two] persons moved by reciprocal and free emotion (see the comic books seized from Raffaele Sollecito and the statements […]

There is, obviously, a reason why it is believed that Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito conspired with Rudy Guede to murder Meredith.

It is deduced that...

 

[Kaosium]

For example, on page 367 of the Massei translation of the Amanda Knox trial:



There is, obviously, a reason why it is believed that Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito conspired with Rudy Guede to murder Meredith.

It is deduced that...

I'm not going to let you get away with that, Justinian!

If you're going to have fun with Massei, you have to use his favorite line! The one that could have convicted me, or you--or Coulsdon!

It is thus possible and in fact probable, considering the relationship that Raffaele Sollecito had with knives (he never separated himself from his knife, as has been seen), that Amanda, advised and convinced by her boyfriend, that is Raffaele Sollecito, to take this knife with her, if not only to make her feel more secure, and that, if necessary, it could have served as a deterrent against possible ill-*intentioned persons that, at night and on her own, she may have encountered. Furthermore, since it was a kitchen knife, Amanda, were she to be checked, would have been able to easily explain why she was carrying it.

I just love that last line: like everyone carries a butcher's knife in their handbag. It just explains everything. Everyone has one these days, officer, honest!