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Merged al Megrahi and the Lockerbie bombing

I'm not sure it adds a great deal, to be honest.

When they heard that something was coming out about Megrahi, BBC Scotland were rarin to go on this on Newsnight Scotland. However, when the specifics came out, they pulled the entire item.

Gadaffi was threatening everyone left right and centre to try to influence Megrahi's release. In other news, rain is still wet.

Rolfe.

Except it appears that he wasn't threatening the people who's immediate responsibility the matter was.

It is interesting that the final decision appears to have been taken by Salmond rather than Macaskill.
 
Except it appears that he wasn't threatening the people who's immediate responsibility the matter was.


Gadaffi isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer. And he may have thought he was threatening people who could then in their turn threaten the people whose immediate responsibility the matter was.

It is interesting that the final decision appears to have been taken by Salmond rather than Macaskill.


No, that isn't actually true. The leaked document says Salmond told Straw in October 2008 that he would take the final decision. That may be so. However, what happened in August 2009 was that MacAskill took the decision (and told all comers to bugger off out of his business, apparently).

Rolfe.
 
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Gadaffi isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer. And he may have thought he was threatening people who could then in their turn threaten the people whose immediate responsibility the matter was.

Well on paper they could even if it would have been politicaly suicidal. However Gadaffi did aparently try slightly better targeted bribery so someone in the libyan goverment must have worked out that Holyrood was of some import.

No, that isn't actually true. The leaked document says Salmond told Straw in October 2008 that he would take the final decision. That may be so. However, what happened in August 2009 was that MacAskill took the decision (and told all comers to bugger off out of his business, apparently).

For a party leader to cease to be involved in a matter once they have already become involved would have been a political anomoly. Adimitedly Salmond being involved would be a constitional anomoly but I would question how free MacAskill was in the decision he made if he knew that Salmond had been involved.
 
Sigh. The current revelations have precisely the square root of bugger-all to do with whether he was guilty or not.

Rolfe.

I'd argue that they elliminate the possibility that any coverup is due to trying to hide the release being due to libyan pressure. If Salmond's today interview is to be belived no one thought to mention the pressure to Holyrood.
 
Well on paper they could even if it would have been politicaly suicidal. However Gadaffi did aparently try slightly better targeted bribery so someone in the libyan goverment must have worked out that Holyrood was of some import.


Indeed. It seems nobody was interested in jelly and ice-cream though.

For a party leader to cease to be involved in a matter once they have already become involved would have been a political anomoly. Adimitedly Salmond being involved would be a constitional anomoly but I would question how free MacAskill was in the decision he made if he knew that Salmond had been involved.


Anomaly or not, the information from those privy to what happened is that

Mark MacLachlan said:
.... it was 'him and him alone' that made the decision. Cabinet were apparently told in a rather firm and forceful manner that there would be no discussion of the matter, that it was the sole preserve and decision of K MacAskill.


It's far more likely that Salmond was just grandstanding a bit when talking to Straw. The whole thing was fairly hypothetical in 2008. Ten months later when the actual events unfold is a different country.

Rolfe.
 
I'd argue that they elliminate the possibility that any coverup is due to trying to hide the release being due to libyan pressure. If Salmond's today interview is to be belived no one thought to mention the pressure to Holyrood.


The really interesting question is why does it appear that Kenny MacAskill pressurised or manipulated Megrahi into dropping his ongoing appeal at the time he was released. If the appeal had been allowed to continue, as it could have been, it would have been completed by now.

And the world would be looking for someone else to label as "the Lockerbie bomber".

Rolfe.
 
Just as an aside, what would be really really interesting is if Megrahi were to hand over to Wikileaks the 800+ page SCCRC report into the Zeist conviction, plus the 13 volumes of appendices.

Six grounds stated by which the conviction "may have been" a miscarriage of justice (you only need one to be upheld for a successful appeal), but only four enumerated in the press release (and one of these was so cryptic as to be uninformative). A document fiercely protected by a Public Interest Immunity Certificate, to the point where even the defence lawyers weren't to be allowed to see it in confidence, and the one person who was to be allowed to see it on behalf of the defence was not to be allowed to communicate with the defence or the defendant after he'd seen it. What was that all about?

All the details of the investigation into the suggested grounds for appeal that weren't upheld by the SCCRC, so we can see whether the reasons for rejecting them were sound or not. All the additional witness interviews and statements.

The day that lot hits Wikileaks, as it may after Megrahi dies, I may have to take early retirement to get through it all.

Rolfe.
 
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Just as an aside, what would be really really interesting is if Megrahi were to hand over to Wikileaks the 800+ page SCCRC report into the Zeist conviction, plus the 13 volumes of appendices.

Indeed. It would be good to see that.
In addition it would be good to understand why Megrahi did not testify at trial and has never come forth with any information about what he was doing on Malta on 21 December 1988 and prior, what his business was with Edwin Bollier (I doubt it was a staircase, or "parts" other than bomb timers), what business (if not planting a bomb) he was conducting in the mid to late 1980's, (clearly it was not airport security) and why he needed a false passport to conduct said unknown business.
In otherwords, what exatctly were Megrahi's duties as an employee of the Libyan Government and why was he emplyed by LAA in 1988 and prior, and why he hasn't come forward with this information to clear his name; at trial, at appeal, with the SCCRC and in any commentary on his web site about the dropped appeal, if he is so allegedly innocent. I highly doubt he will present any of this, for the very reason that all of this information implicates him as either the one who carried out the bombing, or was highly complicit in it. And please, spare me, the "he was never known to be involved in anything before". So what. That doesn't mean he was never involved in anything for which he was not caught. And lastly, if he was such a simple man, why was the highest of high in the LIbyan government so hell bent on risking serious international relations with the UK, Scotland and the US to get him released. Simple man simply building a staircase? NO ****** way.

All the details of the investigation into the suggested grounds for appeal that weren't upheld by the SCCRC

Good point. The number of grounds that wern't upheld by the SCCRC far outnumber the ones that were. And all of the people who whine about how long it took for the SCCRC and the second appeal to come to a decision should look only to Megrahi's council for reasons about delays.

The day that lot hits Wikileaks, as it may after Megrahi dies, I may have to take early retirement to get through it all.
HA! Welcome to the party Rolfe. PA 103 Families have been put through this over and over again through multitudes of UK and Scottish bickering and politicing, only to reach serious disapointment in Scotland, whom we (the families) thought were allies, only to learn that they are nothing but whores to the UK and Libya. Sad.
That said, I must say, that that during my viists to Scotland over the years, the scottish people were nothing but kind to me and my family. I truly believe that they have been caught in a web of political and "hostage taking' by their own by their government - not dissimilar to that of the Amercans now. So, my disclaimer, as regards my comments above relates to the Scottish government, and not the Scottish people in general.

Happy Holidaze. :-~
 
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Just as an aside, what would be really really interesting is if Megrahi were to hand over to Wikileaks the 800+ page SCCRC report into the Zeist conviction, plus the 13 volumes of appendices.

Six grounds stated by which the conviction "may have been" a miscarriage of justice (you only need one to be upheld for a successful appeal), but only four enumerated in the press release (and one of these was so cryptic as to be uninformative). A document fiercely protected by a Public Interest Immunity Certificate, to the point where even the defence lawyers weren't to be allowed to see it in confidence, and the one person who was to be allowed to see it on behalf of the defence was not to be allowed to communicate with the defence or the defendant after he'd seen it. What was that all about?

All the details of the investigation into the suggested grounds for appeal that weren't upheld by the SCCRC, so we can see whether the reasons for rejecting them were sound or not. All the additional witness interviews and statements.


I think, as has been argued before, it was much easier for the SCCRC to refer the case back to appeal on the basis of the Maltese shopkeeper's evidence being unsupported and unreliable to base a conviction on rather than calling into question the actual investigators, the evidence presented, and the judges conclusions made at Zeist.


Rolfe said:
The day that lot hits Wikileaks, as it may after Megrahi dies, I may have to take early retirement to get through it all.

Rolfe.


It might not be that long away. "Everyday is expected to be his last"
 
I think, as has been argued before, it was much easier for the SCCRC to refer the case back to appeal on the basis of the Maltese shopkeeper's evidence being unsupported and unreliable to base a conviction on rather than calling into question the actual investigators, the evidence presented, and the judges conclusions made at Zeist.


I think that's true. If the Gauci ID had been overturned, then the conviction would have collapsed without a doubt. It would have been so much easier to do it that way, rather than dragging RARDE through the muck by looking at the provenance of the timer chip in detail. British forensics from RARDE to the Scottish fingerprint laboratory have had enough egg on their faces over the past years, let's not throw any more at them if we don't have to?

However, Tony Kelly had intimated his intention to bring up the timer fragment and all the rest of it anyway. I don't know if that had any influence on what happened later. Oddly, Tony Kelly later appeared very half-hearted about the appeal, after it was dropped, as if he couldn't have been bothered to fight it. Not sure what to make of that either.

The thing is, I don't necessarily believe the SCCRC when they pre-empt criticism of the forensics service or police procedure by declaring them kosher in an unsupported public pronouncement. Why, they might even be trying to conceal some rather grubby linen they see no point in subjecting to the public laundry! I'd very much like to see the actual evidence on which they based their conclusion that the timer chip wasn't fabricated, for example. Maybe it wasn't, but it sure as hell looks as if it was to me.



It's sad, and he was treated very badly, but indeed not nearly so badly as many other victims of miscarriages of justice and summary, flawed justice the world over. (I'm thinking of Guiseppe Conlon here, for starters, then moving on to Stefan Kiszko and Sally Clark, and that's not even moving out of Britain.)

Megrahi himself isn't the issue here, in a strange sort of way. The issue is the appalingly flawed investigative process and the kangaroo court at Zeist, and whatever the hell is being covered up by all that. And that we still have little idea who was responsible for murdering 270 innocent people more than 20 years ago.

Rolfe.
 
Indeed. It would be good to see that.
In addition it would be good to understand why Megrahi did not testify at trial and has never come forth with any information about what he was doing on Malta on 21 December 1988 and prior, what his business was with Edwin Bollier (I doubt it was a staircase, or "parts" other than bomb timers), what business (if not planting a bomb) he was conducting in the mid to late 1980's, (clearly it was not airport security) and why he needed a false passport to conduct said unknown business.


I've addressed this before, but you never came back to discuss the points I raised.

There are four pretty obvious reasons why Megrahi may have decided not to take the witness stand. First, he may have been advised that the prosecution case was extremely weak and as it is up to the prosecution to prove their case, then taking the stand would not be necessary. Second, the defence never admitted that he was a JSO officer (though he obviously was, I think). Explaining what he was doing in Malta that day may well have involved making precisely that admission. Third, if he was engaged in some shady operation on Gadaffi's behalf that day, then coming clean about that would hardly have been seen as something in his favour by the judges. And finally, it's probable that he was on a covert mission on behalf of the Gadaffi regime. It's extremely likely that he was simply forbidden from revealing any details about it.

As regards Bollier and staircases, I thought you were familiar with the specifics of this case? If so, why do you make statements like that?

It is a fact that on 20th December 1988, while in Malta, Megrahi saw a Maltese joiner about getting an estimate for a staircase to be built in his house in Tripoli. The joiner later travelled to Tripoli to inspect the job and provide an estimate as requested. At one point the defence tried to suggest this was the primary reason for his journey, which was a bit lame given the use of the diplomatic passport. But it never had anything to do with Bollier.

There are a lot of people drifting around the globe engaged in covert, semi-legal and even illegal activities. Bollier had a lot of contacts in the Libyan regime and elsewhere. Spies and intelligence agents aren't just confined to the pages of Ian Fleming's novels. That Megrahi was probably in that category does not mean he had anything to do with bombing Pan Am 103, in the absence of any actual evidence actually connecting him to the actual bomb, you know.

"He won't tell me what he was doing so he must have been bombing the plane" is a complete non sequitur.

In otherwords, what exatctly were Megrahi's duties as an employee of the Libyan Government and why was he emplyed by LAA in 1988 and prior, and why he hasn't come forward with this information to clear his name; at trial, at appeal, with the SCCRC and in any commentary on his web site about the dropped appeal, if he is so allegedly innocent. I highly doubt he will present any of this, for the very reason that all of this information implicates him as either the one who carried out the bombing, or was highly complicit in it. And please, spare me, the "he was never known to be involved in anything before". So what. That doesn't mean he was never involved in anything for which he was not caught. And lastly, if he was such a simple man, why was the highest of high in the LIbyan government so hell bent on risking serious international relations with the UK, Scotland and the US to get him released. Simple man simply building a staircase? NO ****** way.


See my points above. There are many reasons for him not "coming clean" about what he was actually doing with that diplomatic passport that day. There's no reason at all to believe it had anything to do with bombing Pan Am 103, when the evidence indicates the bomb was introduced at Heathrow airport, not Malta, and that the clothes in the suitcase were bought by a heavily-built, six-foot-tall man of about fifty years of age, on 23rd November 1988.

The fact is that he was indeed never known to be involved in anything illegal or terrorism-related before. Which is more than can be said for a number of his compatriots. So, really, on the basis of past form he was always a much less likely suspect than Abu Talb, for example. This is something to be borne in mind.

And no, nobody here is suggesting that he was just a "simple man building a staircase". That doesn't mean he bombed that plane though.

Good point. The number of grounds that wern't upheld by the SCCRC far outnumber the ones that were. And all of the people who whine about how long it took for the SCCRC and the second appeal to come to a decision should look only to Megrahi's council for reasons about delays.


That is a very valid point. The defence went to town and flew every kite there was in the direction of the SCCRC. This had a lot to do with that body taking 3½ years to make its report. (Not so much to do with the subsequent two-year delay before the appeal actually made it in front of the judges, or the glacially slow process of the case once it was there, or the timetable set out apparently deliberately to exceed the estimated life expectancy of a dying man, mind you.)

However, the fact that the majority of these kites weren't accepted by the SCCRC has no bearing at all on the validity of the appeal process. The prosecution only has to fail on one crucial point to fail completely. The SCCRC identified six.

The SCCRC in effect said, "looks like Megrahi didn't buy those clothes." That being so, there is no case against him.

I have very strong suspicions that the timer fragment was in fact fabricated by the CIA and planted in the evidence trail by Hayes and Feraday. And about the provenance of one or two other items that look extremely fishy. However, even if I'm entirely wrong about that, the collapse of the Gauci identification still means there's no case against Megrahi - even if the MST-13 timer and the Toshiba manual and the rest of it are entirely on the level.

I'd like to see the SCCRC's reasons for dismissing the suggestion that the timer chip was a plant. (And for deciding that "the Golfer" is a fantasist, and other stuff like that.) I'd also like to see what this Public Interest Immunity Certificate thing was all about, and a number of other related matters.

This is about understanding the wider aspects of the case, though. The case against Megrahi stands or falls on Tony Gauci's identification, and as far as I can see, that fell in a heap a long time ago.

HA! Welcome to the party Rolfe. PA 103 Families have been put through this over and over again through multitudes of UK and Scottish bickering and politicing, only to reach serious disapointment in Scotland, whom we (the families) thought were allies, only to learn that they are nothing but whores to the UK and Libya. Sad.


I don't think the Scottish police were ever your allies. They were going after the man they were told to go after. I don't think the Scottish court system was ever your ally, except insofar as its desire to get someone convicted whether or not he actually did it, and yours, coincided.

Your interpretation of the release process is, as always, highly partisan and pretty much unrelated to the facts. However, the release process and the conviction are two completely different issues.

That said, I must say, that that during my viists to Scotland over the years, the scottish people were nothing but kind to me and my family. I truly believe that they have been caught in a web of political and "hostage taking' by their own by their government - not dissimilar to that of the Amercans now. So, my disclaimer, as regards my comments above relates to the Scottish government, and not the Scottish people in general.


You seem to feel betrayed that Megrahi was granted compassionate release, and determined to find some fault in the way that process was conducted, even though no such fault has been found despite several investigations and Wikileaks.

I too find reason to take issue with the conduct of that process, though for a completely different reason from yours. My reason is that the way it was handled seems to have been aimed at forcing or manipulating Megrahi to withdraw the appeal.

We will have to agree to differ on this. However, my concern is not the compassionate release in 2009, but the verdict in 2001 which flew in the face of the facts as presented in court, and tossed away most of the rules of evidence in the process.

It scares me far more that my country's criminal justice system can perpetrate a show trial to convict a man on evidence that says he had nothing to do with the crime, and can then engage on a ten-year coverup of this, than that a terminally ill prisoner was granted compassionate release according to due process.

Rolfe.
 
Ex-Libyan Justice Minister says Khaddafi ordered al-Megrahi to carry out the bombing:
Swedish tabloid Expressen says Libya's ex-justice minister claims Moammar Gadhafi personally ordered the Lockerbie bombing that killed 270 people in 1988.

Expressen on Wednesday quoted Mustafa Abdel-Jalil as telling their correspondent in Libya that "I have proof that Gadhafi gave the order about Lockerbie." He didn't describe the proof.

Abdel-Jalil stepped down as justice minister to protest the violence against anti-government demonstrations.

He told Expressen Gadhafi gave the order to Abdel Baset al-Megrahi, the only man convicted in the bombing of Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland, which killed all 259 people on board and 11 on the ground.

"To hide it, he (Gadhafi) did everything in his power to get al-Megrahi back from Scotland," Abdel-Jalil was quoted as saying.

Also:
The Scottish Government says it "never doubted" the safety of the conviction of the Lockerbie bomber following reports that Libyan leader Colonel Moammar Gaddafi ordered the attack.
 
I just typed a reply in the other thread where you posted the same thing.

Why have you no interest in looking at the stacks of actual evidence we've shoved in front of you. but suddenly you're wetting yourself when one of Gadaffi's ex-goons makes a completely unsupported statement while trying to ingratiate himself with the West as the whole shebang blows up in his face?

This is three threads discussing this now.

Rolfe.
 

In the interest of balance, the former head of intelligence for Rafsanjani in Iran who defected claimed that Iran was responsible for Lockerbie years ago.

http://www.independent.ie/world-new...ms-he-organised-lockerbie-bombing-373856.html

Neither claim proves anything. I'll be interested to see if any evidence is actually provided by Libyan officials in the near future.
 
Interesting the way nobody seems to want to look or discuss or debate when you spend two years going through the actual evidence with a fine-tooth comb, then one bad guy with an agenda mouths off and suddenly everybody wants to play.

ETA: That claim is so much hot air too, by the way. That Iranian is also saying Megrahi and Fhimah did it. The problem is, Fhimah was acquitted and it's impossible Megrahi himself "put the bomb on the aircraft" from all we know about the evidence. Find someone who claims to know something about goings-on at Heathrow airport about 4 o'clock that afternoon, and that starts to get credible.

Rolfe.
 
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Mr. Behbehani, the second link, is a strange case. Charles Norrie has a notion he was involved, since according to Lara Marlowe, a young girl named Behbehani was among the passengers killed in the shoot-down of Iran Air 655.

Too bad the Iranian defector's story is silly, and conforms neither with Charles' own 1/2" thick bomb built into the container in London theory, nor any of the more rational London-origin constructs. If that guy wanted to implicate Iran, he hitched himself to the wrong horse, in Megrahi (and Fhimah!). Likewise if this non-Giaka Libyan defector wants to implicate is own country, well, he picked the same horse (jut not mentioning Fhimah yet).

So if we put together these claims of Bebehani and Abdel-Jalil, and the work we've done here over the last 18 months - which is NOT cancelled just because some guy said something - we get this puzzling picture:

1) Gaddafi, personally, ordered Megrahi, personally, to bomb Flight 103, or some American plane.
2) The Iranians, already planning to do this and in possession of excellent weaponry for it, train Megrahi in Iran and his accomplice, and arm them to do it.
3) Megrahi and Fhimah were on Malta the day of the bombing, which is a stupid place to bomb a plane from, and has no credible evidentiary link to the bombing. He failed to follow through, after all the orders and investments, just as someone else was planting a suitcase in AVE4041 up in London at about 4:30.
4) Megrahi and Fhimah were framed anyway, with planted evidence and bribed witnesses.

Any questions?
 
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