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Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Dan,

Judging from the location the bra clasp was found (under her hips) and where the bra proper was discovered (at her feet) it seems unlikely that her bra was ripped from her as she was on her back (in the final position).


If the right side of the band is pulled as I said while Meredith is lying face down, when the stitches holding the clasp break free, the elasticity of the left band will snap back and throw the clasp to the left. This is in the direction that Meredith is rolled and pulled and in the direction of where the clasp was discovered.


Couldn't the respirated blood on her bra have been deposited while Meredith was standing?


The respirated blood drops on her bra and chest were circular showing a perpendicular impact. If she were standing, the droplets would have been elongated because the angle of impact would necessarily be different.


What other evidence is there that the bra was ripped off while Meredith was on her back?


The proper question to ask is: what evidence could be sought that would confirm or falsify this hypothesis?
 
I have worked in a goverment IT section, and I can tell from first hand that there was NO magnets around.
Because I was only a cleanner at the time, I had to jump loops just to get in.
If they, the IT experts brought a strong magnet in this would efect other computers in the room.


Were you the one running the floor buffer in front of the tape racks? :)

From what I've heard, in order to reliably degauss a disk drive you need such a powerful magnet that it will do physical damage to the delicate mechanics inside.

However, that is only if you try to degauss it from the outside. If you are willing to remove the cover you can get close enough to the media with a strong permanent magnet (such as the one that comes packaged inside every drive) to seriously wipe the data. Such an operation though would leave signs that would be easily recognized by the manufacture.

Note: This post is on topic because Amanda Knox's hard drive was opened by the "experts" that were charged with trying to recover the data from the drive.
 
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I would like to be able to see the autopsy photos. If, as I believe, the bra was used as a 'handle' to move Meredith, there should be markings on the body.


That would be my expectation too. Though I would also want to stress test this make of bra to determine how much force could have been applied before it would break and see if there are other indicators such as broken stitches elsewhere on the bra that should also be present.

The deformation of the clasp would provide another indicator of the force involved. Earlier, someone pointed out that the hooks on the clasp should release before the stitching fails. I believe what happened here was more of an unzipping action starting at the high stress point where the strap meets the band. Once it starts to fail here, the entire force is applied to one stitch at a time and they pop right down the line. With the clasp sharing the same stitches, the first few stitches on the clasp would be taken out by the strap separating and the remaining clasp stitches would similarly unzip.

It's not clear to me at this point if the force to break the bra from grabbing the band in the way described would be sufficient to leave a recognizable mark. I do though expect a significant mark was created when the left strap was broken unless something else weakened the strap where it broke at the ring.
 
* * *

The respirated blood drops on her bra and chest were circular showing a perpendicular impact. If she were standing, the droplets would have been elongated because the angle of impact would necessarily be different.

* * *

_____________________

Dan,

I'm not convinced. The front of the bra is mostly a curved surface, convex, as are the breasts covered by the fabric. So one would expect elongated blood droplets on those surfaces whether or not Meredith were on her back. Do you have a good photograph of the bra?

It's interesting to note that Mignini in his reconstruction of the murder scene ---in his summation during the trial---does not situate Meredith on her back when her bra is ripped off. Instead, she is on her knees when Raffaele rips off her bra.

A good test, I think, would be this. If she were standing, kneeling, or on all fours, virtually all the blood droplets aspirated would be on the top half of the bra cups, little on the underside. If, instead, were she on her back, the blood droplets on the bra cups would be more uniformly distributed.

///
 
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Just saw the Lifetime movie and Behind the Scenes.

Lifetime showed only the stuff that was known before the trial; all the Mignini, Barbie, and Pisa lies.

Lifetime should be sued for the republication of Libelous material.
 
Dan,

I'm not convinced. The front of the bra is mostly a curved surface, convex, as are the breasts covered by the fabric. So one would expect elongated blood droplets on those surfaces whether or not Meredith were on her back. Do you have a good photograph of the bra?


You are correct. The elongation will show the relative angle of impact with respect to the surface normal at each point of impact on the surface. Having a contoured landscape will give a ritcher interpretation of the data. I remember seeing a suitable photo presenting the blood splatter evidence but can't find it right now.


It's interesting to note that Mignini in his reconstruction of the murder scene ---in his summation during the trial---does not situate Meredith on her back when her bra is ripped off. Instead, she is on her knees when Raffaele rips off her bra.


Mignini has a habit of making things up that aren't supported by any evidence at all. Though in this case I guess he does have that tiny bit of Raffaele's DNA from the hook. Where do you grab the bra to leave DNA on the hook and nowhere else? And if you grab the bra at the clasp, how do you produce the stress to peal off the strap where it is sewn to the band? Let's get back to reality and stay away from Mignini.


A good test, I think, would be this. If she were standing, kneeling, or on all fours, virtually all the blood droplets aspirated would be on the top half of the bra cups, little on the underside. If, instead, were she on her back, the blood droplets on the bra cups would be more uniformly distributed.


I think we may see a combination of both. She is moved from the position where she was stabbed to eventually on her back. Hopefully we can find some detailed enough photos to evaluate.
 
You are correct. The elongation will show the relative angle of impact with respect to the surface normal at each point of impact on the surface. Having a contoured landscape will give a ritcher interpretation of the data. I remember seeing a suitable photo presenting the blood splatter evidence but can't find it right now.

I don't agree with Fine's point that the curve of Meredith's breasts would mean that the blood spray would be elongated. Lying on her back, a woman's breasts are much flatter than when upright (unless she was particularly full-chested or had implants), so the perpendicular pattern of the blood specks probably does indicate that they settled on her when she was lying on her back.

(Having said that, I'm not following the analysis of the crime scene photos too closely, so don't expect me to get into a long discussion.)

...

Let's get back to reality and stay away from Mignini.

No - let's highlight where Mignini departs from the evidence, science and reason at every opportunity.
 
Just saw the Lifetime movie and Behind the Scenes.

Lifetime showed only the stuff that was known before the trial; all the Mignini, Barbie, and Pisa lies.

Lifetime should be sued for the republication of Libelous material.

I did not see it but from the comments that I have seen it appears that Lifetime had a leaning towards guilt on this one.
 
I did not see it but from the comments that I have seen it appears that Lifetime had a leaning towards guilt on this one.

All the stuff we've been arguing here was missing.

They did show intimidating interrogations of Amanda and Raffaele.

They did show the flimsiness of the prosecution's theories.

The DNA evidence, ToD, and footprint evidence was straight Massei.

They made it seem like the conspiracy with Guede was plausible.
 
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I did not see it but from the comments that I have seen it appears that Lifetime had a leaning towards guilt on this one.

Lifetime in the story behind the story relied on Barbie and Pisa. Here's what is said about Barbie in "Injustice in Perugia":
The unfortunate truth is many aspiring journalists tend to behave like bugs and hover around the brightest light. Barbie Latza Nadeau is one of those journalists. Barbie is a travel and dining columnist that writes for Newsweek and the Daily Beast.

and

Barbie's newfound success relies 100% on Amanda's guilt. Barbie is currently benefiting due to the suffering of others.

There were many pages devoted to Barbie.
 
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Lifetime movie

There were so many inaccuracies that I had a tough time writing them all down. To me the biggest one was that the forensics were done far earlier than the press conference, when in fact it was the other way around.
 

The big error to me was whether Raffaele had called 1-1-2 before the Postal Police arrived, that was established when they finally correlated the inaccurate timestamp on the camera with the arrival of the Postal Police and Raffaele's phone records.

I liked how they had lines straight from the note and pieces about the case like the 'soulless' Daily Mail article as dialogue.

Hayden played it as Amanda being innocent, that was pretty clear. I thought it underlined nicely the absurdity of the charge, and the likelihood of police error. She actually did a pretty good job, the previews I'd seen weren't impressive, but the whole rather worked and she had a couple good scenes.

The problem with litanies about 'mountains of evidence' and why it's all really rubbish is that they're boring; they make for bad TV and I don't blame them for avoiding that. However I do wish they'd concentrated on all the other reasons why the 'murder knife' didn't leave the drawer rather than the quantity of DNA found, the later comes off as a technicality rather than a disqualifier.

All in all I thought it pretty decent. It kinda bent backwards a little to maintain suspicion, which is rather required as Amanda herself nor her actions were actually all that suspicious and the big screen reveals that. I doubt many uninitiated will come away thinking she definitely did it, and in all most will think the police musta made a mistake.

I found the program following rather interesting, Mignini himself! I wasn't expecting that. With Nick Pisa and Barbie Nadeau it could have been horrific. It wasn't quite that, and Steve Moore came off well.
 
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Well said Kaosium.

Perhaps that's why it came off in my mind like a dichotomy. Amanda and Raffaele did nothing that would indicate guilt. The police investigation, on the other hand, seemed either to indicate guilt or over-active imaginations.

Never the less, the whole story was a concatination of logical fallacies.

• Appeal to law: an argument which implies that legislation is a moral imperative.[2][3]
• Appeal to probability: assumes that because something could happen, it is inevitable that it will happen. This is the premise on which Murphy's Law is based.[4][3]
• Base rate fallacy: using weak evidence to make a probability judgment without taking into account known empirical statistics about the probability.[6]
• False dilemma (false dichotomy): where two alternative statements are held to be the only possible options, when in reality there are more.[9]
• Nirvana fallacy: when solutions to problems are said not to be right because they are not perfect.
• Negative proof fallacy: that, because a premise cannot be proven false, the premise must be true; or that, because a premise cannot be proven true, the premise must be false.
• Package-deal fallacy: consists of assuming that things often grouped together by tradition or culture must always be grouped that way.
• Existential fallacy: an argument has two universal premises and a particular conclusion, but the premises do not establish the truth of the conclusion.
• Proof by example: where examples are offered as inductive proof for a universal proposition. ("This apple is red, therefore all apples are red.")
• Argument from repetition (argumentum ad nauseam): signifies that it has been discussed extensively (possibly by different people) until nobody cares to discuss it anymore
• Appeal to ridicule: a specific type of appeal to emotion where an argument is made by presenting the opponent's argument in a way that makes it appear ridiculous
• Argument from ignorance (appeal to ignorance): The fallacy of assuming that something is true/false because it has not been proven false/true. For example: "The student has failed to prove that he didn't cheat on the test, therefore he must have cheated on the test."
• Begging the question (petitio principii): where the conclusion of an argument is implicitly or explicitly assumed in one of the premises
• Circular cause and consequence: where the consequence of the phenomenon is claimed to be its root cause
• Continuum fallacy (fallacy of the beard): appears to demonstrate that two states or conditions cannot be considered distinct (or do not exist at all) because between them there exists a continuum of states. According to the fallacy, differences in quality cannot result from differences in quantity.
• Correlation does not imply causation (cum hoc ergo propter hoc): a phrase used in the sciences and the statistics to emphasize that correlation between two variables does not imply that one causes the other
• Division: where one reasons logically that something true of a thing must also be true of all or some of its parts
• Composition: where one reasons logically that something true of part of a whole must also be true of the whole
• Ecological fallacy: inferences about the nature of specific individuals are based solely upon aggregate statistics collected for the group to which those individuals belong
• False attribution: occurs when an advocate appeals to an irrelevant, unqualified, unidentified, biased or fabricated source in support of an argument
• contextomy (Fallacy of quoting out of context): refers to the selective excerpting of words from their original linguistic context in a way that distorts the source’s intended meaning
• False compromise/middle ground: asserts that a compromise between two positions is correct
• Gambler's fallacy: the incorrect belief that separate, independent events can affect the likelihood of another random event.
• Moving the goalpost (raising the bar): argument in which evidence presented in response to a specific claim is dismissed and some other (often greater) evidence is demanded
• Proof by verbosity (argumentum verbosium) (proof by intimidation): submission of others to an argument too complex and verbose to reasonably deal with in all its intimate details. see also Gish Gallop and argument from authority.
• Prosecutor's fallacy: a low probability of false matches does not mean a low probability of some false match being found
• Psychologist's fallacy: occurs when an observer presupposes the objectivity of his own perspective when analyzing a behavioral event
• Red herring: This occurs when a speaker attempts to distract an audience by deviating from the topic at hand by introducing a separate argument which the speaker believes will be easier to speak to.
• Special pleading: where a proponent of a position attempts to cite something as an exemption to a generally accepted rule or principle without justifying the exemption
• Suppressed correlative: an argument which tries to redefine a correlative (two mutually exclusive options) so that one alternative encompasses the other, thus making one alternative impossible
• Wrong direction: where cause and effect are reversed. The cause is said to be the effect and vice versa.
• Cherry picking: act of pointing at individual cases or data that seem to confirm a particular position, while ignoring a significant portion of related cases or data that may contradict that position
• Composition: where one infers that something is true of the whole from the fact that it is true of some (or even every) part of the whole
• False analogy: false analogy consists of an error in the substance of an argument (the content of the analogy itself), not an error in the logical structure of the argument
• Hasty generalization (fallacy of insufficient statistics, fallacy of insufficient sample, fallacy of the lonely fact, leaping to a conclusion, hasty induction, secundum quid)
• Misleading vividness: involves describing an occurrence in vivid detail, even if it is an exceptional occurrence, to convince someone that it is a problem
• A red herring is an argument, given in response to another argument, which does not address the original issue. See also irrelevant conclusion
• Ad hominem: attacking the person instead of the argument. A form of this is reductio ad Hitlerum.
• Argumentum ad baculum ("appeal to the stick" or "appeal to force"): where an argument is made through coercion or threats of force towards an opposing party
• Argumentum ad populum ("appeal to belief", "appeal to the majority", "appeal to the people"): where a proposition is claimed to be true or good solely because many people believe it to be so
• Association fallacy (guilt by association)
• Appeal to authority: where an assertion is deemed true because of the position or authority of the person asserting it.[13][14]
• Appeal to accomplishment: where an assertion is deemed true or false based on the accomplishments of the proposer.
• Appeal to emotion: where an argument is made due to the manipulation of emotions, rather than the use of valid reasoning
• Appeal to consequences: a specific type of appeal to emotion
• Appeal to fear: a specific type of appeal to emotion where an argument is made by increasing fear and prejudice towards the opposing side
• Appeal to flattery: a specific type of appeal to emotion where an argument is made due to the use of flattery to gather support
• Appeal to pity: a specific type of appeal to emotion
• Appeal to ridicule: a specific type of appeal to emotion
• Appeal to spite: a specific type of appeal to emotion where an argument is made through exploiting people's bitterness or spite towards an opposing party
• Wishful thinking: a specific type of appeal to emotion where a decision is made according to what might be pleasing to imagine, rather than according to evidence or reason
• Appeal to motive: where a premise is dismissed, by calling into question the motives of its proposer
• Appeal to nature: an argument wherein something is deemed correct or good if it is natural, and is deemed incorrect or bad if it is unnatural
• Appeal to novelty: where a proposal is claimed to be superior or better solely because it is new or modern
• Appeal to tradition: where a thesis is deemed correct on the basis that it has a long-standing tradition behind it
• Genetic fallacy: where a conclusion is suggested based solely on something or someone's origin rather than its current meaning or context. This overlooks any difference to be found in the present situation, typically transferring the positive or negative esteem from the earlier context.
• Judgmental language: insulting or pejorative language to influence the recipient's judgment
• Poisoning the well: where adverse information about a target is preemptively presented to an audience, with the intention of discrediting or ridiculing everything that the target person is about to say
• Sentimental fallacy: it would be more pleasant if; therefore it ought to be; therefore it is
• Straw man argument: based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position
• Style over substance fallacy: occurs when one emphasizes the way in which the argument is presented, while marginalizing (or outright ignoring) the content of the argument
• Texas sharpshooter fallacy: Picking your target after you shoot the dart ensuring that you are right
• Tu quoque: the argument states that a certain position is false or wrong and/or should be disregarded because its proponent fails to act consistently in accordance with that position
• Slippery slope: argument states that a relatively small first step inevitably leads to a chain of related events culminating in some significant impact
 
All the stuff we've been arguing here was missing.

They did show intimidating interrogations of Amanda and Raffaele.

They did show the flimsiness of the prosecution's theories.

The DNA evidence, ToD, and footprint evidence was straight Massei.

They made it seem like the conspiracy with Guede was plausible.
Interesting observation, I wonder how much of what is discussed on blogs will actually appear in the appeal. We are looking at one or two sessions per week starting March ending probably before the summer recess.
 
Well said Kaosium.

Perhaps that's why it came off in my mind like a dichotomy. Amanda and Raffaele did nothing that would indicate guilt. The police investigation, on the other hand, seemed either to indicate guilt or over-active imaginations.

Never the less, the whole story was a concatination of logical fallacies.

• Appeal to law: an argument which implies that legislation is a moral imperative.[2][3]
• Appeal to probability: assumes that because something could happen, it is inevitable that it will happen. This is the premise on which Murphy's Law is based.[4][3]
• Base rate fallacy: using weak evidence to make a probability judgment without taking into account known empirical statistics about the probability.[6]
• False dilemma (false dichotomy): where two alternative statements are held to be the only possible options, when in reality there are more.[9]
• Nirvana fallacy: when solutions to problems are said not to be right because they are not perfect.
• Negative proof fallacy: that, because a premise cannot be proven false, the premise must be true; or that, because a premise cannot be proven true, the premise must be false.
• Package-deal fallacy: consists of assuming that things often grouped together by tradition or culture must always be grouped that way.
• Existential fallacy: an argument has two universal premises and a particular conclusion, but the premises do not establish the truth of the conclusion.
• Proof by example: where examples are offered as inductive proof for a universal proposition. ("This apple is red, therefore all apples are red.")
• Argument from repetition (argumentum ad nauseam): signifies that it has been discussed extensively (possibly by different people) until nobody cares to discuss it anymore
• Appeal to ridicule: a specific type of appeal to emotion where an argument is made by presenting the opponent's argument in a way that makes it appear ridiculous
• Argument from ignorance (appeal to ignorance): The fallacy of assuming that something is true/false because it has not been proven false/true. For example: "The student has failed to prove that he didn't cheat on the test, therefore he must have cheated on the test."
• Begging the question (petitio principii): where the conclusion of an argument is implicitly or explicitly assumed in one of the premises
• Circular cause and consequence: where the consequence of the phenomenon is claimed to be its root cause
• Continuum fallacy (fallacy of the beard): appears to demonstrate that two states or conditions cannot be considered distinct (or do not exist at all) because between them there exists a continuum of states. According to the fallacy, differences in quality cannot result from differences in quantity.
• Correlation does not imply causation (cum hoc ergo propter hoc): a phrase used in the sciences and the statistics to emphasize that correlation between two variables does not imply that one causes the other
• Division: where one reasons logically that something true of a thing must also be true of all or some of its parts
• Composition: where one reasons logically that something true of part of a whole must also be true of the whole
• Ecological fallacy: inferences about the nature of specific individuals are based solely upon aggregate statistics collected for the group to which those individuals belong
• False attribution: occurs when an advocate appeals to an irrelevant, unqualified, unidentified, biased or fabricated source in support of an argument
• contextomy (Fallacy of quoting out of context): refers to the selective excerpting of words from their original linguistic context in a way that distorts the source’s intended meaning
• False compromise/middle ground: asserts that a compromise between two positions is correct
• Gambler's fallacy: the incorrect belief that separate, independent events can affect the likelihood of another random event.
• Moving the goalpost (raising the bar): argument in which evidence presented in response to a specific claim is dismissed and some other (often greater) evidence is demanded
• Proof by verbosity (argumentum verbosium) (proof by intimidation): submission of others to an argument too complex and verbose to reasonably deal with in all its intimate details. see also Gish Gallop and argument from authority.
• Prosecutor's fallacy: a low probability of false matches does not mean a low probability of some false match being found
• Psychologist's fallacy: occurs when an observer presupposes the objectivity of his own perspective when analyzing a behavioral event
• Red herring: This occurs when a speaker attempts to distract an audience by deviating from the topic at hand by introducing a separate argument which the speaker believes will be easier to speak to.
• Special pleading: where a proponent of a position attempts to cite something as an exemption to a generally accepted rule or principle without justifying the exemption
• Suppressed correlative: an argument which tries to redefine a correlative (two mutually exclusive options) so that one alternative encompasses the other, thus making one alternative impossible
• Wrong direction: where cause and effect are reversed. The cause is said to be the effect and vice versa.
• Cherry picking: act of pointing at individual cases or data that seem to confirm a particular position, while ignoring a significant portion of related cases or data that may contradict that position
• Composition: where one infers that something is true of the whole from the fact that it is true of some (or even every) part of the whole
• False analogy: false analogy consists of an error in the substance of an argument (the content of the analogy itself), not an error in the logical structure of the argument
• Hasty generalization (fallacy of insufficient statistics, fallacy of insufficient sample, fallacy of the lonely fact, leaping to a conclusion, hasty induction, secundum quid)
• Misleading vividness: involves describing an occurrence in vivid detail, even if it is an exceptional occurrence, to convince someone that it is a problem
• A red herring is an argument, given in response to another argument, which does not address the original issue. See also irrelevant conclusion
• Ad hominem: attacking the person instead of the argument. A form of this is reductio ad Hitlerum.
• Argumentum ad baculum ("appeal to the stick" or "appeal to force"): where an argument is made through coercion or threats of force towards an opposing party
• Argumentum ad populum ("appeal to belief", "appeal to the majority", "appeal to the people"): where a proposition is claimed to be true or good solely because many people believe it to be so
• Association fallacy (guilt by association)
• Appeal to authority: where an assertion is deemed true because of the position or authority of the person asserting it.[13][14]
• Appeal to accomplishment: where an assertion is deemed true or false based on the accomplishments of the proposer.
• Appeal to emotion: where an argument is made due to the manipulation of emotions, rather than the use of valid reasoning
• Appeal to consequences: a specific type of appeal to emotion
• Appeal to fear: a specific type of appeal to emotion where an argument is made by increasing fear and prejudice towards the opposing side
• Appeal to flattery: a specific type of appeal to emotion where an argument is made due to the use of flattery to gather support
• Appeal to pity: a specific type of appeal to emotion
• Appeal to ridicule: a specific type of appeal to emotion
• Appeal to spite: a specific type of appeal to emotion where an argument is made through exploiting people's bitterness or spite towards an opposing party
• Wishful thinking: a specific type of appeal to emotion where a decision is made according to what might be pleasing to imagine, rather than according to evidence or reason
• Appeal to motive: where a premise is dismissed, by calling into question the motives of its proposer
• Appeal to nature: an argument wherein something is deemed correct or good if it is natural, and is deemed incorrect or bad if it is unnatural
• Appeal to novelty: where a proposal is claimed to be superior or better solely because it is new or modern
• Appeal to tradition: where a thesis is deemed correct on the basis that it has a long-standing tradition behind it
• Genetic fallacy: where a conclusion is suggested based solely on something or someone's origin rather than its current meaning or context. This overlooks any difference to be found in the present situation, typically transferring the positive or negative esteem from the earlier context.
• Judgmental language: insulting or pejorative language to influence the recipient's judgment
• Poisoning the well: where adverse information about a target is preemptively presented to an audience, with the intention of discrediting or ridiculing everything that the target person is about to say
• Sentimental fallacy: it would be more pleasant if; therefore it ought to be; therefore it is
• Straw man argument: based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position
• Style over substance fallacy: occurs when one emphasizes the way in which the argument is presented, while marginalizing (or outright ignoring) the content of the argument
• Texas sharpshooter fallacy: Picking your target after you shoot the dart ensuring that you are right
• Tu quoque: the argument states that a certain position is false or wrong and/or should be disregarded because its proponent fails to act consistently in accordance with that position
• Slippery slope: argument states that a relatively small first step inevitably leads to a chain of related events culminating in some significant impact
Gosh that is a long list, do you think any of it will be raised by either defence teams?
 
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