Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Katody Matrass]

I did find some of the pictures of Amanda's handwritten note but I still have not been able to see the illegible section referred to in the transcripts unless I am going blind.

http://www.milestonemedia.it/editorial/photos/show/MILESTONE-ED-00L2MA
http://www.milestonemedia.it/editorial/photos/show/MILESTONE-ED-00L2MB
http://www.milestonemedia.it/editorial/photos/show/MILESTONE-ED-00L2MC
http://www.milestonemedia.it/editorial/photos/show/MILESTONE-ED-00L2MD

Very interesting finding, RoseMontague!

I believe the unreadable part is not on those pages, those are only the first part of her statement. However looking at the handwriting it's hard to believe there could be something illegible, unless it's just a mistake crossed (squiggled?) over like some of those in the pages shown.

 

[Dan O.]

You guys have to excuse me this morning, I am reviewing so many photo's. Is this the part you are referring to?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/383964d613ea87a80d.bmp

Almost.

At the very bottom of that image where the strap attaches to the band, it looks like the stitching has started to pull up.

Now, can you find a photo of that part of the other strap?


I'm trying to work out from where things are torn how the bra was grabbed. My current theory is grabbing the band on the back right outside of where the strap attaches. Pulling down and out will separate the strap from the band. If the pull was from the other side of the strap, the force would be along the length of the strap and would be less likely to separate it. The strap separating from the band could have weakened the stitching on the clasp if these were sown in the same pass. This could be enough to cause the stitches on the clasp to fail on the same pull. The other strap failed at the ring and I don't see how enough force could be transfered from pulling the band on the far side. The left strap would require a second grab on the strap itself to break it. The strap may have been grabbed first as a handle to move Meredith and when it failed, the heaver band was then grabbed.


PS: Have I got the right and left reversed? was the bloody strap over the right shoulder or the left?

 

[CoulsdonUK]

I did find some of the pictures of Amanda's handwritten note but I still have not been able to see the illegible section referred to in the transcripts unless I am going blind.

http://www.milestonemedia.it/editorial/photos/show/MILESTONE-ED-00L2MA
http://www.milestonemedia.it/editorial/photos/show/MILESTONE-ED-00L2MB
http://www.milestonemedia.it/editorial/photos/show/MILESTONE-ED-00L2MC
http://www.milestonemedia.it/editorial/photos/show/MILESTONE-ED-00L2MD

RoseMontague

Are these images of Amanda's handwritten note that she made whilst still a witness?

 

[RoseMontague]

RoseMontague

Are these images of Amanda's handwritten note that she made whilst still a witness?

This was written the day after her 1:45AM and 5:45AM statements (already a suspect) IIRC.

 

[RoseMontague]

Almost.

At the very bottom of that image where the strap attaches to the band, it looks like the stitching has started to pull up.

Now, can you find a photo of that part of the other strap?


I'm trying to work out from where things are torn how the bra was grabbed. My current theory is grabbing the band on the back right outside of where the strap attaches. Pulling down and out will separate the strap from the band. If the pull was from the other side of the strap, the force would be along the length of the strap and would be less likely to separate it. The strap separating from the band could have weakened the stitching on the clasp if these were sown in the same pass. This could be enough to cause the stitches on the clasp to fail on the same pull. The other strap failed at the ring and I don't see how enough force could be transfered from pulling the band on the far side. The left strap would require a second grab on the strap itself to break it. The strap may have been grabbed first as a handle to move Meredith and when it failed, the heaver band was then grabbed.


PS: Have I got the right and left reversed? was the bloody strap over the right shoulder or the left?

Interesting. That side does look like it is starting to come loose. I will try to get a better view. In the meantime here is the other side (doesn't look to have similar strain). I believe the bloody strap would be on her right.

 

[RoseMontague]

Very interesting finding, RoseMontague!

I believe the unreadable part is not on those pages, those are only the first part of her statement. However looking at the handwriting it's hard to believe there could be something illegible, unless it's just a mistake crossed (squiggled?) over like some of those in the pages shown.

That's what I thought when I saw that "illegible section" mentioned a few places. Her handwriting is usually very legible. That is why my interest is up on this one.

 

[RoseMontague]

Dan,
I am going to send you that image, I can't get it to load. In the meantime, they are kidding with this one, right?



ACHOO

 

[Dan O.]

Interesting. That side does look like it is starting to come loose. I will try to get a better view. In the meantime here is the other side (doesn't look to have similar strain). I believe the bloody strap would be on her right.

This photo you posted earlier is the end I was missing:

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/383964d613d38ae928.bmp[/qimg]

The very end of the strap that is bloody would have been stitched to the back band and the clasp which are not as bloody. This blood had to get no the strap after it was ripped off the band.


The left strap separated at the ring so probably had to be pulled on the strap itself. Looking at the two ends of that strap, the ring and slide are clean but the part of the strap coming from the front looks like it has secondary transfer blood stains. This strap was probably broken by pulling on the top of the strap from the front, pulling against the band still around her left arm.

From an engineering perspective, I am surprised that the stitching would fail at that point. I would instead expect the plastic ring to fail first. Still, I recall seeing other mentions of bras failing at that point and needing to be re-stitched.

Removing the bra was done with extreme violence. This is not someone delicately staging a rape scene.

 

[Dan O.]

Do you mean the shoulder strap or the back strap?

In the terminology that I've seen, the narrow bits that go over the shoulders are called straps and the wide thing that goes around the back is called the band. I'll try to stick to this terminology to limit confusion. However, some of the case documents still refer to the back part as a strap. Someone should check the original Italian to see if the distinction was lost in translation.

 

[Dan O.]

Dan,
I am going to send you that image, I can't get it to load. In the meantime, they are kidding with this one, right?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/383964d615fb58b366.jpg

Ooh!! I've heard of those. They make knives out of carbon fiber so they are extremely light weight and don't show up on metal detectors. (*)


(or is that just a plastic model )

 

[RoseMontague]

Ooh!! I've heard of those. They make knives out of carbon fiber so they are extremely light weight and don't show up on metal detectors. (*)


(or is that just a plastic model )

Nah,
I think it is the missing 4th murder weapon.

 

[RoseMontague]

Interesting. That side does look like it is starting to come loose. I will try to get a better view. In the meantime here is the other side (doesn't look to have similar strain). I believe the bloody strap would be on her right.

This photo you posted earlier is the end I was missing:

​

The very end of the strap that is bloody would have been stitched to the back band and the clasp which are not as bloody. This blood had to get no the strap after it was ripped off the band.


The left strap separated at the ring so probably had to be pulled on the strap itself. Looking at the two ends of that strap, the ring and slide are clean but the part of the strap coming from the front looks like it has secondary transfer blood stains. This strap was probably broken by pulling on the top of the strap from the front, pulling against the band still around her left arm.

From an engineering perspective, I am surprised that the stitching would fail at that point. I would instead expect the plastic ring to fail first. Still, I recall seeing other mentions of bras failing at that point and needing to be re-stitched.

Removing the bra was done with extreme violence. This is not someone delicately staging a rape scene.

Thanks for your analysis Dan O. I am curious if you feel this was all done from behind Meredith?

 

[Dan O.]

Thanks for your analysis Dan O. I am curious if you feel this was all done from behind Meredith?

At this point, I'm thinking the right strap and clasp were torn off from behind by grabbing the band behind the right arm. The band may have been used as a handle to turn Meredith over on her back as the right arm and should would have been covered in blood. This is contrary to where I thought Rudy's DNA was found which if I recall was in the band closer to where the clasp attached. This might be reconciled if when the band broke, Rudy's hand reflectively closed on the band to hold it. The resulting "rope burn" then deposited the DNA.

It's possible that the same action broke the left strap. But there is also evidence that Meredith was on her back before the bra was finally removed. The stain on the left strap looks like a bloody hand grabbed it and yanked it off from the front. We're talking a considerable force that needs to be exerted on that strap because it effectively doubles its strength by being folded over the ring and sewn onto itself.

 

[Justinian2]

Justinian2

I doubt that you would complain if “they” overturned the verdict, then your opinion of “them” would change. I prefer to be naively open minded to either possibility.

I can't be told what to think. Only a fact can change my mind.

If somebody holds a gun to my head, I will agree, and say that I changed my mind, but my mind will remain unchanged by a mere threat.

No fact from the present cast of characters would change my mind because my mistrust of them is so complete. Even if a video camera were found in MK's room that showed the murder, I would think it a plant at this late date.

 

[Supernaut]

Antony, I would like to hear more of these "powerful incentives" you think there are for police and courts to prosecute those they know to be innocent. Just how do these incentives work?

.......


This is a complex question which we can't know in detail, but I would suppose that the degree of convincement (*) varied considerably among the police force and over time. My point is that that the success criteria for the police are centred around achieving a conviction, not establishing the truth - so doubts about the actual involvement of their suspects were secondary to whether they could make a case against them stick.

"[Doublethink] ...... the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them. ... To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then, when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just so long as it is needed, to deny the existence of objective reality and all the while to take account of the reality which one denies—all this is indispensably necessary. Even in using the word doublethink it is necessary to exercise doublethink. For by using the word one admits that one is tampering with reality; by a fresh act of doublethink one erases this knowledge; and so on indefinitely, with the lie always one leap ahead of the truth."

George Orwell - "1984".​

 

[Supernaut]

BTW, As many have realised, Orwell presaged the phenomena of "cognitive dissonance", which is now endemic in the Former West.

Cognitive dissonance is a state in which the denizens of the 'information age' struggle to reconcile what their own awareness tells them is real with the misinformation and lies they are told to believe is real - it is, literally, "doublethink".

In the Meredith Kercher case we have the perfect example.

 

[RoseMontague]

"[Doublethink] ...... the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them. ... To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then, when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just so long as it is needed, to deny the existence of objective reality and all the while to take account of the reality which one denies—all this is indispensably necessary. Even in using the word doublethink it is necessary to exercise doublethink. For by using the word one admits that one is tampering with reality; by a fresh act of doublethink one erases this knowledge; and so on indefinitely, with the lie always one leap ahead of the truth."

George Orwell - "1984".​

Very nice quote and I think it is very appropriate. Thanks.

 

[Supernaut]

Very nice quote and I think it is very appropriate. Thanks.

You are (as always) welcome, RM.

 

[Fine]

At this point, I'm thinking the right strap and clasp were torn off from behind by grabbing the band behind the right arm. The band may have been used as a handle to turn Meredith over on her back as the right arm and should would have been covered in blood. This is contrary to where I thought Rudy's DNA was found which if I recall was in the band closer to where the clasp attached. This might be reconciled if when the band broke, Rudy's hand reflectively closed on the band to hold it. The resulting "rope burn" then deposited the DNA.

It's possible that the same action broke the left strap. But there is also evidence that Meredith was on her back before the bra was finally removed. The stain on the left strap looks like a bloody hand grabbed it and yanked it off from the front. We're talking a considerable force that needs to be exerted on that strap because it effectively doubles its strength by being folded over the ring and sewn onto itself.

___________________________

Dan,

Judging from the location the bra clasp was found (under her hips) and where the bra proper was discovered (at her feet) it seems unlikely that her bra was ripped from her as she was on her back (in the final position). Couldn't the respirated blood on her bra have been deposited while Meredith was standing? What other evidence is there that the bra was ripped off while Meredith was on her back?

///

 

[zeb]

I have worked in a goverment IT section, and I can tell from first hand that there was NO magnets around.
Because I was only a cleanner at the time, I had to jump loops just to get in.
If they, the IT experts brought a strong magnet in this would efect other computers in the room.